The Assembly met at 13:30 with the Llywydd (Elin Jones) in the Chair.

I call the National Assembly to order.

1. 1. Questions to the Cabinet Secretary for Economy and Infrastructure

[R] signifies the Member has declared an interest. [W] signifies that the question was tabled in Welsh.

The first item on our agenda this afternoon is questions to the Cabinet Secretary for Economy and Infrastructure. And the first question, Lynne Neagle.

<p>The Circuit of Wales</p>

Lynne Neagle AC: 1. Will the Minister provide an update on progress with regard to the Circuit of Wales? OAQ(5)0092(EI)

Ken Skates AC: Yes. The Circuit of Wales is close to submitting a revised bid, following my challenge to them in July to ensure any support provided by the taxpayer is proportionate and fair. Once a formal bid has been received, I will provide a further update to Members.

Lynne Neagle AC: Thank you, Minister. You will be aware of the significant cross-party support for the Circuit of Wales, with local authorities throughout Gwent, and many Labour Assembly Members, backing what this project can achieve. Do you recognise the enthusiasm and excitement for delivering this transformational infrastructure project, to demonstrate what Wales has to offer?

Ken Skates AC: Yes, I do recognise the enthusiasm and support for the project. And, of course, I share the frustration of many about how long the project is taking. But it’s important to realise that this is a privately financed project, and the pace is not being driven by Government, nor is it in the control of Welsh Government. So, I would like to see a clear decision point by the company as early as possible in the new year. I can tell Members that, over the past few months, my officials have been working with the company, meeting with them on a weekly basis, and the company has confirmed that it has everything required of it from Welsh Government.

David Melding AC: Cabinet Secretary, can I urge all appropriate support from the Welsh Government? This will be a wonderful project for Blaenau Gwent, Gwent as a whole and all of Wales, because the marketing potential would just be vast. You’ve chosen there a highly popular, innovative sport, really the sort of image we want to project—that Wales is open for new and exciting business.

Ken Skates AC: I agree. The advertising potential or the advertising equivalent for major events is huge. We know that when we host major events, such as rugby, such as the Ashes, the focus of the world coming on Cardiff, and on Wales, is immense. And, for an area such as the Valleys, it would be incredibly valuable to have a regular raft of major events taking place there, promoting it, not just as an attractive place to visit, but an attractive place in which to work and live.

Steffan Lewis AC: To follow on from the comments by the Member of Torfaen, there’s support across parties for this project, and on these benches too. I’m sure the Cabinet Secretary is aware of the reported financial difficulties facing Silverstone, with key figures in the Formula 1 sector questioning whether it will host the UK Grand Prix beyond 2026. Many of those same key figures in the sector are openly talking about the prospect of Wales hosting the UK’s Grand Prix, at the Circuit of Wales. Would you not agree with me, therefore, that it’s a fantastic opportunity to showcase Wales to the world, with the exposure that Formula 1 gets on an international stage, building on the fantastic sporting and global recognition of Wales, especially after the successful summer of sport we’ve had already?

Ken Skates AC: I wouldn’t wish to comment on the current position of Silverstone. But, with regard to Formula 1, it is, of course, one of the biggest annual sporting events that takes place in Britain, currently at Silverstone. The Circuit of Wales team have assured Welsh Government that any potential future bid for Formula 1 would not require funding in any shape or form from Welsh Government. It would be an extraordinarily expensive major event to host, but one that would be pretty unprecedented in terms of automotive sport in Wales.

Neil Hamilton AC: Can I acknowledge the interest the Cabinet Secretary is taking in this project, and the assistance he’s given to bringing it to the stage where it’s at now, and to re-emphasise the point, which Lynne Neagle made, that there is support right across this Chamber—certainly includes my own party—for this project?Will he also acknowledge that the guarantee that is being sought is a commercial guarantee, for which the Government would be paid, and that it would actually be called upon only in extreme circumstances where, in due course, all the assets that are proposed to be built on the site will have been completed, and it would be, in a £380 million project, only a guarantee on £190 million, so there’ll be 100 per cent security, at a 50 per cent exposure? Given that it’s a commercial guarantee, for which the Government would get £3 million a year, that does counterbalance, to a great extent, the risk that the Government is being asked to take. And, therefore, I ask the Cabinet Secretary to give it the fairest possible wind.

Ken Skates AC: And the Member is broadly right in his assertions. I think the figures have risen slightly, but, nonetheless, the actual return, provided that the circuit operates for the full duration, would return something in the region of £2.5 million in terms of the benefit-cost ratio for the taxpayer. So, the Member is absolutely right in that regard. Just reflecting on what other Members have said, when I was Deputy Minister for Culture, Sport and Tourism, I believe I might have hosted, but I certainly spoke at, an event on behalf of the Circuit of Wales, talking about the value of facilities of this type and major events in the automotive sector and indeed in extreme sport in promoting Wales. In terms of extreme sport, it’s playing an incredibly important role in promoting 2016 as the Year of Adventure and it will do so next year as well as the Year of Legends and in 2018 during the Year of the Sea.

<p>Supporting Small Businesses in Arfon</p>

Siân Gwenllian AC: 2. Will the Minister make a statement on the government’s efforts to support small businesses in Arfon? OAQ(5)0089(EI)[W]

Ken Skates AC: Wide-ranging support is available for small and medium-sized businesses in Arfon and indeed across Wales through the Business Wales support network.

Siân Gwenllian AC: Last week, I visited a very prosperous small business in my constituency. They are trying to purchase the building that they lease from Welsh Government at present and they’re on an industrial estate at the edge of Caernarfon. They want to acquire the building in order to expand their business. The company that came to value the unit on behalf of the Government came from Bristol. Their price for the value of the property was much higher than the price given by the local company from north Wales that had been used by the tenant to determine the price. So, there was one price from Bristol, one from north Wales and tens of thousands of pounds of disparity in the cost. The first question is: why is the Government using a company from England? That, presumably, is contrary to the procurement policies of this Government. Do you agree that the local valuation company has a much better understanding of the local prices? Do you agree also that this company is under great disadvantage because of this situation? They can’t proceed to purchase on the valuation given. So, please, will you look at this again?

Ken Skates AC: I don’t think it would be right for me to comment in any detail on what is clearly a commercial matter, but if the Member would wish to write to me with details of both valuations, I’ll certainly ask my officials within the property team to take a look at why there is such a clear and sizeable difference in the values that have been applied to it. In addition, I will endeavour to get Business Wales officials to make contact with the company to ensure that there is all the necessary support in place to assist the company in purchasing the property, should it wish to carry through with such a transaction.

Mark Isherwood AC: Given that the Welsh Government promised to cut taxes for small businesses and instead extended the small business rate relief scheme, which had been temporary, this was described by the North Wales Federation of Small Businesses, which represents businesses from Arfon right across the region, as you know, as ‘blatantly misleading and the worst form of spin-doctoring.’How, therefore, will you respond to the extra £16 million announced in the autumn statement for the Welsh Government to spend on business rates? I believe they said that they remain a huge financial burden for small businesses. At present, the rateable value of each business that pays business rates in Wales is only half that in England and the size of the firm, unlike England and Scotland, is not taken into account, putting smaller firms at direct disadvantage. So, how will you engage with small businesses in Arfon and their sector representatives, such as the Federation of Small Businesses, to address those concerns?

Ken Skates AC: I’d like to thank the Member for his question and say that that was one person within the FSB and many others in the FSB in north Wales have welcomed the Welsh Government’s cut to business taxes for small and medium-sized businesses in Arfon. The Member mentions the English scheme, but that applies to far fewer businesses. Our scheme will apply to around 70 per cent of businesses and around half of all eligible businesses will pay no rates at all. In terms of the support that we give to businesses in Arfon, I think it’s pretty clear that our assistance is paying dividends, as the number of enterprises operating in Gwynedd has reached a record high, with 15,786 businesses operating in that part of Wales. That’s reflected across the whole of north Wales as well, where a record number of businesses are now operating—just shy of 62,000.

<p>Questions Without Notice from Party Spokespeople</p>

Questions now from party spokespeople. The spokesperson for the Welsh Conservatives, Russell George.

Russell George AC: Thank you, Presiding Officer. Cabinet Secretary, I welcome the 1.6 per cent rise in Welsh exports. However, it is concerning to me, on looking deeper into the figures, that trade to North America has significantly declined from over a quarter share of Welsh exports in 2012 to just 15 per cent in 2016. In the same period, the volume of exports has declined by 15 per cent. Furthermore, over the last four years, the First Minister has made a number of high-profile trips to the US, the latest being in September. Have they been a success?

Ken Skates AC: Yes, they have, because data show that the return on the investment of those trade missions is approximately 40:1. So, a great success in terms of the return for the taxpayer. We are planning two more trade missions to the United States in the spring of next year, to San Francisco and to New York. I think it’s quite clear that the additional £5 million that has been secured for Visit Wales, as a consequence of the budget agreement with Plaid Cymru, will also help in promoting Wales in the key market of the United States, but I would say to Members that the United States is a vast country and we do have to focus our resources and activities in key areas. So, it may well be that we focus in specific cities or states of the United States as we look to exploit opportunities to increase our export potential there.

Russell George AC: I’m pleased to hear that there will be further trade missions to the US—that’s welcome—but of course what’s important is the success of those missions. The Welsh Government is, of course, currently developing a new economic strategy, which is even a greater priority, I would say, given the vote to leave the European Union. We’ve already seen a decline in exports to North America. Whilst there is a modest growth in exports overall, your Government, I would say, should be proactively working to seek out those new opportunities. So, will you therefore commit to making this a top priority in 2017 and incorporate the boosting of trade with North America within that strategy?

Ken Skates AC: Yes, indeed. Exports, we’ve said on a number of occasions, are going to be a key feature of our work in the coming years. We will be intensifying both investment and activity in this area, not least because currency exchange rates clearly give us a competitive advantage in many markets at present. I should say as well that, in terms of exports, the figures that the Member has pointed to show that only five of the 12 UK countries and English regions had increases in export values. Wales was one of them. The remaining seven saw falls against this period with Scotland having the largest percentage decrease. Wales is well positioned to build on recent success in exports and I intend to do just that.

Russell George AC: While I also recognise the EU is an important market for Wales, there should be a warning, of course, of an over-reliance on trading with one area. From 2012 to 2016, the EU share of the Welsh export market has risen from 44 per cent to 67 per cent. That accounts for two thirds of Welsh exports. The UK average, by contrast, is 49 per cent, which is about where it was four years ago before North American trade started to decline. The President-elect has indicated a willingness to trade with the UK. What discussions have you had about this and will you act on that invitation and make sure Wales is at the front of that queue?

Ken Skates AC: I’ve had no conversations as of yet with the President-elect and no invitation to attend any trade events in the United States. Of course, we would consider them, should they come forward. Yes, the President-elect has given indications that he would wish to forge favourable agreements with the United Kingdom. That said, throughout the entirety of the campaign that he’s just fought, he was saying that he wishes to draw up the drawbridges, rather than reach out to partners around the world. So, we’ll need to wait until January to actually see whether his willingness or his seeming enthusiasm to embrace some of the United Kingdom is actually genuine.

UKIP spokesperson—David Rowlands.

David J Rowlands AC: Diolch, Lywydd. Turning to some more mundane matters, but nonetheless important in their own right, Cabinet Secretary, could the Cabinet Secretary inform us as to who is responsible for clearing litter from the trunk roads in Wales?

Ken Skates AC: Yes, that would be Welsh Government.

David J Rowlands AC: Well, I thank you for your answer, Cabinet Secretary, but the reason for my inquiry is that the general condition of the verges of such roads is, quite frankly, appalling. Nick Ramsay raised the matter of the A449 with your predecessor, and a temporary clean-up took place. However, soon after, it returned to its usual deplorable condition. Now, I know that the Cabinet Secretary is fully committed to the tourism industry in Wales, so given that many of these trunk roads either traverse or lead into areas of outstanding natural beauty, does the Cabinet Secretary not agree that it is an intolerable state of affairs, especially as the plethora of flotsam and jetsam is not only environmentally unacceptable but also extremely hazardous?

Ken Skates AC: I would agree that littering is utterly unacceptable, but the way that we respond to such a problem is not just to clear up litter, it’s to persuade people to change their attitudes, their behaviours and their culture. Indeed, under the Well-being of Future Generations (Wales) Act 2015, it’s imperative that we find ways to avoid such problems emerging in the future. So it’s not just for us to clear up on trunk roads; we are having a very difficult time to find the resources to do just that, just as local authorities are struggling, given this continued period of austerity. But, longer term, we need people to change their behaviours in order to keep our landscapes clearer and more attractive, not just for visitors but for people who live in them.

David J Rowlands AC: Well, again, I thank the Cabinet Secretary for his reply, but this is such a fundamental part of what we want to sell Wales as to the tourists who come here. And to see the verges in the absolute state that they are, that does not encourage or give a good impression of Wales generally. Something ought to be done about this, and quite urgently.

Ken Skates AC: Quality of place is absolutely essential in ensuring people have pride in the place that they live, and I would agree with the Member that it does need to be improved in terms of not just trunk road verges, but streets in general and town centres. Many local authorities are having difficulty with an increase, in some parts, of littering and anti-social behaviour. But the key, the long-term key, to improving our built environment is in ensuring that people change their behaviours, and we are trying to do just that. Indeed, right from primary school upwards, with the introduction of the new curriculum, we hope that people will become more responsible and respectful adults and stop littering. I find it particularly frustrating in my constituency, where there is a well-known fast food outlet on the side of one of our trunk roads. We often see considerable litter being dropped, but I have to say that that particular outlet is very responsible in actually paying for, and often organising, litter-picking sessions. Of course, they can’t go on the trunk road, but in the surrounding areas. And I would like to see more corporate responsibility of that nature right across our towns and cities and, indeed, along roadways, where there is currently a problem with littering, particularly with fast food.

Plaid Cymru spokesperson, Adam Price.

Adam Price AC: Diolch, Lywydd. It was expected for the regional gross value added figures to be released today by the Office for National Statistics, but they’ve been postponed for a week—perhaps realising the Welsh Government have already had a tough enough week with yesterday’s PISA results. However, I would like to bring to the attention of the Cabinet Secretary a report released by Ernst and Young this week on regional growth projections for the next three years. Slower growth is predicted across the UK, with an average UK growth of 1.5 per cent. Wales, however, is even worse, with growth expected to be at just 1 per cent—growth in GVA over the next three years. If you factor in this projected growth rate, then Welsh GVA would then fall below the 70 per cent average, compared to the UK GVA, for the first time ever in recorded economic history. Isn’t this the Maginot line, if you like, of Welsh economic policy—a line that should never be crossed? We don’t currently have an upper target from the Welsh Government in terms of GVA. We did once; it was 90 per cent. It was abolished. Could we at least have a lower target, a national poverty line that we should never accept? And if that line—I hope it never happens—is crossed, will we have a public commitment that someone in Welsh Government will take ultimate responsibility for it?

Ken Skates AC: Well, the Member makes a number of important points. First of all, I was very disappointed that those statistics were delayed. It was out of our control, as the Member is aware, but I was very much hoping that they would be published this week. I can’t comment on what I have seen within the statistical release. That said, projections are based often on science that subsequently is proven to be wrong. We know that from a number of recent elections and referenda. What we can do is rely on existing figures and they show that, in terms of GVA per head, since devolution, Wales had the fifth highest increase compared to the 12 UK countries and English regions. Since the recession, GVA per head has increased more quickly in Wales than the UK. In terms of GVA per hour worked, we had the fourth largest percentage increase in GVA. In terms of the index of production in the last four quarters, production output has increased more quickly in Wales than in the UK as a whole: 3.9 per cent to 1 per cent. Based on our performance to date, I think we should actually be a little more positive about the predictions. But that said, we cannot be complacent, which is why we’ve worked this year relentlessly to attract high-value companies such as Aston Martin to Wales, whilst also investing in facilities such as the Menai science park and the advanced manufacturing institute to grow and expand existing indigenous companies and to ensure that they can collaborate to compete at the highest level.

Adam Price AC: I’m all for optimism and enthusiasm and passion. I admire that in the Cabinet Secretary, but we have to remind ourselves, don’t we, that we’re at 71.3 per cent of the UK average already. The first step in turning around our abysmal economic performance is a reality check on where we currently are. As he devises his new economic strategy, could I urge him to read the recent CBI report on unlocking regional growth? One of the key areas that they focus on there is the issue of transport infrastructure and the absolutely critical role that it plays. Could I say to him that I think this is one of the key constraints now in our economic performance? You only have to read social media at the moment on a daily basis to see our creaking transport infrastructure: passengers on Arriva Trains Wales complaining about appalling experiences. Just this morning, Jac Larner at 8.58 a.m. said,‘For 2nd time this year my train has caught fire. I suppose it’s good it’s only been twice, but I feel this is still too often’. Leon Williams: ‘This morning. Literally no exaggeration but this is the first time in 11 months that I’ve had a seat on my commute to Neath Port Talbot.’Hannah, yesterday: ‘Someone passed out again on the Bridgend - Aberdare 07.42 train.’ Would the Cabinet Secretary accept that this is now a national crisis and we need urgent action by the Welsh Government? This is completely unacceptable. No-one in any country should have to put up with this.

Ken Skates AC: It is unacceptable the way that some people are having to tolerate public transport at the moment and we have taken a very firm line with the operators. We’re also taking a firm line with Network Rail, who have, in recent years, hugely underfunded the Welsh route network. We also believe firmly that now is the time to devolve all responsibility for rail services, to make sure that we can get the investment where it is needed. In the longer term, once we have the new franchise in place, we will have a new and transformed rail service. But it’s important in the meantime that there is the capacity to be able to meet travellers’ needs. For that reason, the Welsh Government has and will continue to invest in services and we are exploring ways, as I outlined in my statement on 9 November, to increase rolling stock provision as well. One of the major problems that we are finding right now is that there is simply too little money being spent removing trees from tracksides. This is a responsibility that is not ours. It’s non-devolved and it’s unacceptable, because what it’s led to are cancelled trains, particularly—I know that Mark Isherwood has raised this in the past—in the north, and also on the Valleys lines. It’s causing significant problems in terms of delays and cancelled services, and capacity problems. It’s down to one thing: underfunding of the rail network. I’ll be meeting with Network Rail tomorrow to outline, again, my disappointment at the lack of action. But it is absolutely right that, as we move forward, we get devolution of responsibilities for this and we invest where travellers expect us to invest.

Adam Price AC: The other area that is highlighted by the CBI report is skills. It’s absolutely vital that we get workplace training right, and we can only do that if we talk to the employers. There’s a worrying lack of information and clarity at the moment about how the apprenticeship levy is going to be operated. The UK Government did hold an initial consultation, Scotland and Northern Ireland have held their own formal consultation, but there’s been precious little, actually, from the Welsh Government. There was a skills consultation some two years ago. Can we have some real dialogue with our employers? The quid pro quo, where compulsory training levies have ever been introduced, whether it’s through the old industrial training boards, or actually on the continent, is that they are led by employers—in that case by the chambers of commerce—and yet we’re having none of that engagement. Surely we should be introducing a system whereby, if we’re taking money from employers, we should at least be asking them where we should be investing it.

Ken Skates AC: This relates largely to the skills strategy and the work that the Minister for Skills and Science has been undertaking. Sometimes projections do come right; we predicted that this might happen today, this question, so I’ll pass you over to the Minister.

Oh, we have a tag team. That’s a new innovation. I’m all for that. [Laughter.]

Ken Skates AC: We’re going to go into gambling as a consequence of this being right.

Julie James.

Julie James AC: Diolch, Lywydd. The apprenticeship levy is very much in my portfolio, and so I thought it would be helpful, if—

You can sit down Cabinet Secretary. [Laughter.]

Julie James AC: I thought it would be helpful, if this question did come up, if I was in a position to say what the latest position is. The Treasury have announced a further £13.7 million, having recalculated the settlement slightly differently from the basis of the original settlement, which was included in the Barnett formula. They imply that this is all extra money, but that in fact is not the position. Previously I’ve gone through the statistics, and I’ll do it again. Basically—[Interruption.] No, it’s very straightforward, as I said. Basically, what’s happened is we got £114 million for Wales as a result of the Barnett formula for the apprenticeship levy, and £90 million of that was immediately removed because it had been placed in the baseline for the Barnett formula, and £90 million is the reduction in apprenticeship money funding in England as a result of the move between the apprenticeship levy and general taxation. There’s been an announcement of another £13.7 million as a result of the recalculation of the formula, based on the moneys arising from Wales, after a lot of lobbying from Wales, from both businesses and from the Government. However, the situation still is that this is an employer tax levied by HMRC without consultation with the Welsh Government. HMRC, as you know, is not devolved to Wales in any way, and the money directly contradicts our apprenticeship levy. We have been very clear that the consultation that we undertook extensively, just before the levy was announced, and which was well received by all employers in Wales, stands. We have delayed the announcement of our final apprenticeship policy, which I’m hoping to do towards the end of December, as a result of trying to figure out exactly what’s happening. But the bottom line is that this money is not coming back to Wales in the form that the employers would like. It is a tax, pure and simple. Taxes are not devolved, as you know, and neither is it hypothecated in England either—taxes are not hypothecated—so it’s just the current Government’s policy to spend it in this way. That could change tomorrow. We will be holding fast to our well-tried, well-tested and well-consulted-on apprenticeship programme.

<p>Improving Rail Services</p>

Mohammad Asghar (Oscar) AC: 3. How will the policies contained in the Welsh Government’s ‘Taking Wales Forward’ programme improve rail services in Wales? OAQ(5)0077(EI)

Ken Skates AC: We will be delivering the south Wales metro in tandem with the development of the new Wales and borders franchise, which will bring significant improvements to rail services across Wales. Passengers can expect to see a step change in terms of the quality of rail services provided.

Mohammad Asghar (Oscar) AC: Thank you very much for the reply, Cabinet Secretary. Data provided by the Department for Transport show that rail passengers in South Wales East and south Wales are faced with some of the worst overcrowding in England and Wales. Nearly 40 per cent of train services arriving in Cardiff during the morning rush hour in 2015 had passengers who were forced to stand during the journey. What is the Welsh Government doing to address the issue of overcrowding on commuter train services, and will he comment on reports that spare rolling stock from the Gatwick express could be transferred to Arriva Trains Wales next year?

Ken Skates AC: I would hope the Member would recognise that the historic underfunding of the rail network in Wales, as I outlined to Adam Price, has certainly not helped matters, especially at this time of year. Indeed, this is not a new occurrence; historically, we have fared worse during winter months because the investment has not been forthcoming where it should be. In terms of what we as a Government—we are not yet in control of the franchise; that will come with the new franchise—are able to do right now, there is very limited diesel rolling stock. I’m afraid I didn’t quite catch the details of where the Member believes there may be existing diesel-powered stock that could be utilised, but certainly if he could provide information to me I’ll consider it. There is very limited diesel rolling stock currently available, but we are, as I mentioned earlier, in dialogue with the rail industry to try to identify solutions that could deliver additional capacity in the short term whilst we move towards the new franchise. Capacity on some Valleys lines, as I’ve said, including the Ebbw Vale line, has, no doubt about it, in recent weeks been adversely affected by leaf fall, which is unacceptable.

Hannah Blythyn AC: The Welsh Government’s Taking Wales Forward programme makes it clear that there will be an additional £50 million to advance the development of the north Wales metro system. This is welcome, but, in anticipation of bringing in the metro system in north-east Wales, I think steps need to be taken to ensure that the current system we have there is metro-ready, so to speak. I’ve previously spoken in this Chamber and in the community about the need to have better connectivity in the area—better connectivity in terms of train services on key routes, not just north to south traffic but, more importantly, east to west, because that’s the crucial route with our regional economy. I think we also need to ensure that trains link up with bus services, that buses actually stop at train stations and that both bus and train timetables are synchronised to ensure each journey is as efficient as possible. So, Cabinet Secretary, can you tell me what steps are being taken in the short term to allow the longer term ambition of the north Wales metro to be implemented?

Ken Skates AC: The Member is absolutely right that we need to ensure that the transport network is fully integrated. Yesterday, I outlined to Llyr Huws Gruffydd how we are supporting the bus network in north-east Wales in the area where the metro’s origins will be formed in terms of the approach that needs to be taken since the collapse of GHA Coaches. It’s absolutely essential that we stabilise the bus network in the short term whilst we put together the vision for the north Wales metro. Fifty million pounds has been secured for the development of the metro, and the initial scoping of the work has focused on an integrated hub concept in the Deeside area encompassing, as the Member outlines, rail, bus, active travel and road enhancements. In addition to the development of the north Wales metro, which will, of course, span the border, we are committed to proceeding to public consultation in the new year on a major upgrading of the A494/A55 to relieve congestion on that route.

David J Rowlands AC: We meet again, Cabinet Minister. ‘Taking Wales Forward’ includes plans for transport in Wales, with the metro being the most comprehensive and ambitious project ever envisaged by the Welsh Government. I am sure the whole of the Chamber applauds you for your vision on this, but will the First Minister please tell us when will the major works included in this project—[Interruption.] I’m sorry. I do apologise; you’re not there yet, but maybe in the future, sir. Will the Cabinet Secretary please tell us when will the major works included in this project actually begin?

Ken Skates AC: Okay, yes, absolutely. It is a hugely ambitious project and I’d like to thank the Member for his very kind question to me. The cost of the south Wales metro is currently estimated at over £700 million and the timescales are as follows—I’ll go through each of the key points. We’re going to be awarding the operator and developer partner for the franchise and the metro by the end of 2017. We’re going to award the infrastructure contracts by the spring of 2018. By October of 2018, the new franchise will begin. The metro design will take place in 2018-19. Infrastructure delivery will be on site from 2019 and services will be operational from 2023. As the Member outlines, this is a hugely ambitious project, one that we should be excited about and proud of and I’m hopeful that we’ll be able to meet all of those key deadlines and markers. To date, we haven’t missed any of the key timings of this project.

<p>Businesses in Anglesey</p>

Rhun ap Iorwerth AC: 4. Will the Minister make a statement on the impact of high street banking on businesses in Anglesey? OAQ(5)0090(EI)[W]

Ken Skates AC: Whilst banking is non-devolved and branch closures are a commercial matter for the banks, we are keen to ensure that businesses and individuals across Wales have access to banking facilities, including cashpoints and cash deposits and collection facilities. We have put in place measures to support this.

Rhun ap Iorwerth AC: The Minister will be aware, I’m sure, of the announcement of NatWest of its intention to close three branches on Anglesey next June in Holyhead, in Amlwch and Menai Bridge, leaving Amlwch with just one limited-opening-hours bank and no bank in the booming town of Menai Bridge. This follows a series of recent bank closures, leaving large parts of the island with no bank service. The Minister will know how important these services are to businesses. Will the Cabinet Secretary join me in condemning what seems to be the abandonment of large parts of Wales by the big high street banks and will he give an undertaking to do whatever it takes, working with UK Government, to try to prevent the further haemorrhaging of these vital services?

Ken Skates AC: Can I say to the Member that I am most sympathetic to what he is going through and what his communities are going through at the moment? In my constituency of Clwyd South, I have just one bank remaining—just one bank. That’s a Barclays bank. So, I’ve been through, over the past five years, repeated so-called consultations, which always conclude with the closure of a bank. I think it’s absolutely essential that the Griggs review recommendations are implemented in full and that we move away from artificial consultations and to meaningful ones that could result in the retention of banking services. Insofar as what we as a Welsh Government, in addition to pressing for implementation of the recommendations of the Griggs review, can do, I think we need to make sure that post offices continue to provide banking facilities. At the moment, I believe something in the region of 95 per cent of customers can access their banking facilities through post offices, so it’s vitally important that we support that network as well. I think it’s absolutely imperative that NatWest listens not just to you but to, I’m sure, the people you will take to the bank, particularly business customers, because business customers often find it difficult to access the full range of services available from the post office that they expect to be able to access within their local branch. I’d be happy to meet with the Member to discuss any additional assistance that I could possibly give, but, again, the Member has my sympathy in this area and I would very much like to work with him to find solutions for the three communities affected by the NatWest decision.

<p>The Chancellor’s Autumn Statement </p>

Nick Ramsay AC: 5. Will the Minister make a statement on the Welsh Government’s plans for infrastructure in light of the Chancellor’s Autumn Statement? OAQ(5)0083(EI)

Ken Skates AC: Yes. The additional funding is welcomed but it does not reverse the cuts to our capital budget over recent years. Our priority will be ensuring that we use this additional funding to support the creation of a prosperous and secure Wales.

Nick Ramsay AC: Thank you, Cabinet Secretary. The autumn statement will deliver over £400 million extra capital funding over the next five years for infrastructure projects in Wales. We know that there have been concerns surrounding funding for the metro, particularly in the wake of the European referendum. What plans have you to use some of this extra money to support the metro, particularly in rural areas like my constituency, where outlying areas such as Monmouth could be connected to the proposed transport hub at Celtic Manor?

Ken Skates AC: I’m very interested in the proposed transport hub at Celtic Manor, particularly given the development of the convention centre there and its increasing significance as a major destination in south-east Wales. In terms of costs and resources for the metro project as a whole, we expect every penny that was to come from Europe to come from the UK Government when we exit the EU. The guarantees that we have been given we will hold the UK Government to. This is a hugely ambitious project. It’s designed to be a dynamic project as well that can grow and expand. Certainly, insofar as the proposed Celtic Manor hub is concerned, I’d be very keen to examine this prospective development.

<p>The Fourth Industrial Revolution </p>

Lee Waters AC: 6. What assessment has the Minister made of the potential impact of the fourth industrial revolution on jobs in Wales? OAQ(5)0088(EI)

Ken Skates AC: This is an extremely interesting subject matter and the Welsh Government is fully committed to harnessing the opportunities that the fourth revolution presents. Our support for cutting-edge technology, research and development will ensure that innovation is a major economic enabler for Wales.

Lee Waters AC: Thank you, Cabinet Secretary. The coming automation and robotics present huge opportunities, but also very real threats to jobs in Wales. On Monday night in Liverpool, the governor of the Bank of England, Mark Carney, gave a speech in which he said some 15 million jobs could be affected by automation. Using the formula that the Bank of England used in coming up with that figure, I’ve calculated that some 700,000 jobs in Wales could be at risk from automation. This is a crude calculation, but would the Cabinet Secretary commit to doing a proper study of the impact to understand the threat, but also the very real opportunity from this fourth industrial revolution?

Ken Skates AC: Yes, I most certainly would. I’m pleased to be able to tell the Member today that the Wales European Funding Office understands that Industry Wales, who, can I put on record, have been incredibly helpful in teaching me something about industry 4.0, are working in partnership with a number of Welsh universities and are planning to submit an industry 4.0-related bid for funding under the current European regional development fund round and call for research and innovation proposals, which will close on 31 January. I hope that that bid is successful, because I think it would deliver exactly what the Member has called for. In addition to this, I’m pleased to say that the innovation team within Welsh Government is actively engaged with the recently launched UK knowledge transfer networks for manufacturing initiative, which is aimed specifically at realising the potential of the fourth industrial revolution. The Member is absolutely right to highlight both the opportunities and the challenges and threats posed by I4, and if we look to France, perhaps, as a model where we could learn some very significant lessons in how to move towards an automated economy, provided we can make that shift fast enough, I’m firmly of the belief that we can stand on the side of greater opportunities rather than threats.

<p>Grade I Listed Buildings</p>

Mike Hedges AC: 7. Will the Minister make a statement on grade I listed buildings in Wales? (OAQ(5)0079(EI)

Ken Skates AC: Yes. Some 30,000 buildings across Wales have been protected through listing as nationally important buildings of special architectural or historical interest. Four hundred and ninety three of these are grade I.

Mike Hedges AC: Thank you, Cabinet Secretary, for confirming that there are 493 grade I listed buildings in Wales. We also know that they have a variety of different types of ownership. I personally take an interest in the great chapels of Wales created in the nineteenth century. I believe we need a strategy to protect all the grade I listed buildings in Wales. Will the Cabinet Secretary look into creating such a strategy, preferably not involving Cadw?

Ken Skates AC: Local authorities are able to put together local lists of historic interest, but, in terms of what Cadw is doing—and I think it’s important that we recognise that Welsh Government is there to support, both in terms of statutory functions and non-statutory functions, the historic environment—we’re leading on three key initiatives. One is the places of worship action plan, another is the support that Cadw offers local authorities in preparing buildings-at-risk registers, which I think is absolutely crucial, given that places such as Morriston Tabernacle in my friend’s constituency has recently been funded for an options appraisal for the building, which is helping to map and secure its future. That couldn’t have been achieved without close collaboration with the local authority. Thirdly, we are improving the protection of grade I listed buildings and nineteenth century chapels in particular, through protection by the law. The 2016 historic environment Act is designed to enhance protection of grade I listed buildings and, indeed, grade II and grade II* buildings as well.

<p>Promoting Welsh Arts and Culture Abroad</p>

Dai Lloyd AC: 8. Will the Minister make a statement on promoting Welsh arts and culture abroad? OAQ(5)0093(EI)

Ken Skates AC: Our culture sector has an important part to play in promoting Wales as an outward-facing nation that values cultural exchange. We will press for a cultural exemption clause to restrictions on freedom of movement, and for any loss in EU funds for culture to be replaced by UK national funds.

Dai Lloyd AC: Thank you for that answer. Can I direct the Cabinet Secretary to the annual Lorient inter-Celtic festival, held each year in Brittany? It’s the biggest festival in France and the largest celebration of Celtic cultures in the world. The festival has invited Wales to be the honoured nation in 2018. Next year it’s to be Scotland. Can I ask what the Welsh Government is doing to support the year of Wales in Lorient?

Ken Skates AC: I’m very pleased to be able to inform the Member that I am funding our activity at that festival. I am absolutely delighted that we’ve been chosen to be a key partner in 2018, the Year of the Sea, but also the year of friendship with our partners across Europe.

<p>The Superfast Cymru Scheme</p>

Joyce Watson AC: 9. Will the Minister provide an update on the Superfast Cymru scheme? OAQ(5)0095(EI)

Julie James AC: We continue to make solid progress on Superfast Cymru. We have provided access to superfast broadband to over 620,000 premises that would not have been able to receive fibre fast broadband without our intervention.

Joyce Watson AC: I thank you for that answer. This has been a significant investment by the Welsh Government, with European money, for the people of Wales. There is another £20 million earmarked for the next phase. Clearly, delivering Superfast Cymru does remain a top priority of this Government, and it has helped businesses grow, expand and develop within my region. But could you tell me, Minister, how many businesses in Mid and West Wales have benefited from the Superfast Cymru scheme?

Julie James AC: We don’t have the information on individual businesses in that way, because the way that we let the contract is that it is on an all-Wales basis to premises passed. So, each individual premise that gets more than 30 Mbps is accepted onto the Superfast Cymru programme. We don’t have any way of differentiating whether they’re residential or business, I’m afraid. But we do have a £12 million superfast business exploitation programme in place to ensure businesses across Wales, including many in very rural locations and rural locations, maximise the benefits of superfast broadband and, indeed, take up superfast broadband when it arrives, because, often, unless people have seen it working, they haven’t got any understanding of what it can actually bring you. I’ll give you one example: a hotel I visited in Fishguard was delighted to have got Superfast Cymru and they invited me there to see how well it was working. They’d got themselves onto one of the voucher schemes that allow people to get a relatively good price for a weekend break, for example, and they were delighted because the hotel was completely full and totally delighted with the amount that they’d got in place so far. However, once they got it there, they soon realised that they could also then have weddings where WedPics could be used and so on, and that people were passing that information on on online, and very soon, the amount of superfast that they wanted was much bigger than the one that they’d originally envisaged. So, what we’ve been doing is encouraging both locally and regionally, and, actually, internationally. So, this particular hotel in Fishguard was attracting international visitors for the first time. So, it’s a fantastic programme that really helps business exploitation and, indeed, we also let a contract with Airband in 2015 to target nearly 2,000 premises, specifically in business parks and industrial estates across Wales that had been left out of the original programme, if you remember. When we did the new open market review, we were able to include those businesses. So, it’s been tremendously successful, and everybody who’s got it has seen a real increase in business productivity.

And finally, question 10—Darren Millar.

<p>Visitor Numbers from Overseas</p>

Darren Millar AC: 10. Will the Minister make a statement on visitor numbers from overseas to Wales for the past five years? OAQ(5)0082(EI)

Ken Skates AC: Yes. I’m delighted to say that international visitors to Wales have grown strongly, with trips increasing by 10 per cent and spend by 25 per cent between 2011 and 2015. Figures from the international passenger survey for the first six months of 2016 also show growth in both trips and spend.

Darren Millar AC: It’s very encouraging news to note those figures, Cabinet Secretary, and, of course, the value of the pound now is also helping to encourage visitors to the UK as well. But north Wales has a unique offer in terms of tourism, and, as we know, it’s a world-beating offer. It’s up there in the top 10 list of destinations as far as Lonely Planet is concerned. But one of the disadvantages that we have is that we do not have an international airport in north Wales. Now, I’m not going to call for you to build one, but I will ask you to tell us what you are doing to improve links to the international airports in Liverpool and Manchester, between north Wales and those destinations. It is really important that, if we want to drag the important visitors into north Wales, those links to those two particular airports are absolutely crucial. What are you doing to work with the UK Government and others in order to deliver some improvement to those links?

Ken Skates AC: Can I thank the Member for his question and say that I am also pleased that north Wales is the fourth greatest region on the planet? This week, I’m pleased to be able tell the Member that Wales won another award. We won the best in UK for youth, student and educational travellers, and that was at the British Youth Travel Awards. North Wales, without a doubt, has a unique offer, and I am keen to make sure that it becomes more accessible to travellers from abroad and from other parts of the UK for that reason. We are going to be going out to consultation, as I said, on improvements to those key access points—the A494 and the A55—so that travel by road is improved. We are developing the vision for a cross-border metro that will link into Manchester Airport and also Liverpool airport. Last week, I was particularly pleased to attend the ‘Daily Post’ business awards dinner at Bangor University, where the tourism award was sponsored by Liverpool John Lennon Airport. Of course, this has become a very significant airport for the visitor economy of north Wales, so I have asked my officials to engage with that airport and, again, with Manchester Airport, with which we already do a lot of business in promoting Wales. I am in agreement with the Member that we can improve links with those airports; we can improve the road links and the rail links as well.

Thank you, Cabinet Secretary.

2. 2. Questions to the Cabinet Secretary for Health, Well-being and Sport

[R] signifies the Member has declared an interest. [W] signifies that the question was tabled in Welsh.

The next item is questions to the Cabinet Secretary for Health, Well-being and Sport. The first question is from Llyr Gruffydd.

<p>Non-respiratory Sleep Disorders</p>

Llyr Gruffydd AC: 1. Will the Minister make a statement on non-respiratory sleep disorders? OAQ(5)0092(HWS)[W]

Vaughan Gething AC: Thank you for the question. It is important that the cause of non-respiratory sleep disorders is identified early as there can be a wide range of underlying issues ranging from diet, neurological disorders, psychiatric disorders or more. The underlying cause will determine where the condition is best managed, but primary care will be the starting point for management.

Llyr Gruffydd AC: Thank you for that response. As you say, as things stand at the moment, the majority of sleep disorders are treated across departments within our hospitals. There isn’t a specialist centre for such disorders. Those who have these conditions are complaining about diagnosis and treatment for non-respiratory sleep disorders, and you referred to disorders emanating from neurological problems, for example. Diagnosis in Wales is very low in terms of conditions such as narcolepsy. Do you have any plans to improve diagnosis and treatment for such conditions in Wales and what is the prospect of developing a specialist centre, particularly for that wide range of sleep disorders here in Wales?

Vaughan Gething AC: Thank you for the follow-up question. I’m sure that all of us at some point in our lives will suffer some sort of challenge with our sleep. Most of them, though, do pass, as I’m sure you know, with a houseful of young children. But, in terms of the particular disorders and the wider challenges, we know that narcolepsy is a particular challenge, not just on sleep but in daily life. There is no currently known cure; it’s about managing the condition successfully. We do have a tertiary centre in Aneurin Bevan university health board, but I have asked the neurological conditions delivery implementation group to consider what greater emphasis we could have on those who are affected by neurologically affected sleep disorders. So, there is work in train and we know it’s an area where we need to expand our understanding, and then understand where and how we manage the condition and help and support people in the most effective way possible.

Nick Ramsay AC: Cabinet Secretary, I am really pleased that Llyr Gruffydd has raised this very important question. There are strong links between sleep disorders and mental health, so in dealing with sleep order conditions, you are providing a valuable preventative measure in terms of mental health and other areas of the health service. I think you just mentioned the Aneurin Bevan sleep centre, which is based at Nevill Hall in Abergavenny. I believe it’s the only sleep centre of its kind in Wales—certainly dealing with the scope that it does. It’s only partially funded by the NHS, and I don’t think that that funding is guaranteed from year to year. I appreciate that funding is tight, but could you look at giving the sleep centre a little bit more assuredness in future as to its funding, and look to roll out that best practice across the rest of Wales, because it is, as I say, a preventative measure that really will do a lot to reduce spending in other parts of the health service?

Vaughan Gething AC: I think there are two issues you raise in your question. The first is the point about treating the underlying cause, so whether that’s different forms of activity, and where there is a mental health challenge that leads to people having a sleep problem in the first place. The second, then, is what happens afterwards in terms of the treatment, and I think the Aneurin Bevan centre is a good example of where we have some specialism. There’s more work being developed with the Brain Research Imaging Centre at Cardiff University as well, and it’s important to understand what the evidence tells us about what we should then do. I will consider, but the service in particular is a first in understanding the level of demand that exists, what it could and should do, and then how it funds that accurately with other partners as well. So, I understand why you make a bid for extra funding on this particular issue, but I need to see the evidence on what we could and should do and how that matches up with the need and demand that we have, and how we can probably meet that within the system.

<p>The Equality of Care for NHS Patients </p>

Leanne Wood AC: 2. Will the Minister provide an update on the on-going work to ensure equality of care for NHS patients across Wales? OAQ(5)0093(HWS)

Vaughan Gething AC: I thank the Member for the question. I’ll start by recognising and congratulating her on her award last night in the Welsh Politician of the Year awards. The biggest challenge with equality of care in Wales remains the health inequalities between our wealthier and poorer communities. That’s why we’re rolling out the inverse care law programme more widely, following successful pilots in the Aneurin Bevan and Cwm Taf health board areas. This broad issue was, of course, the focus of this year’s chief medical officer report.

Leanne Wood AC: Thank you for your answer, Minister, and for your congratulations. Earlier this year, a constituent of mine, a young mother of three, lost her fight against cancer. Before dying, her partner tried desperately in vain to secure a drug for her that may well have prolonged her life. You may have seen recent media coverage of this case. Her application was rejected on the grounds that her case was not deemed to be exceptional enough, despite the patient’s genetic counsellor telling her that she was the only person in Cwm Taf health board’s boundary to be diagnosed with what I hope is pronounced as Li-Fraumeni syndrome, which is a rare genetic predisposition to cancer. The patient’s oncologist said that they’ve not seen a patient like her, and doubts that she will again. In a heartbreaking account by her partner that I submitted on his behalf to the independent funding request review, he poses the question: what does it take to be clinically exceptional in Wales?As well as implementing the recommendations from the IPFR review, will you be taking steps to ensure that people with rare forms of illness, including cancer, get the best possible care?

Vaughan Gething AC: I thank the Member for the question. The case you highlight again reiterates how incredibly difficult these choices are—difficult for clinicians, difficult for the health service in meeting all the various and differing forms of need, in particular the highly specialist and individualised care that you point to, but most of all, incredibly difficult for the individual and their family. I think that’s why it’s important that we’ve agreed to have the review on the independent patient funding request, and that, together with the new treatment fund, demonstrates the commitment we do have to ensuring we do provide the best possible care where medicines are the answer—because they aren’t always the answer. So, I do look forward to what the review has to say about both the national process and the local processes for understanding how the individual patient funding requests are made. In particular, you’ll know that clinical exceptionality is a specific area of the review, and I look forward to receiving the report. But this Government remains committed to providing the very best care possible, and we will remain committed on the very best basis, the very best evidence base, available to us. That won’t take away from the incredibly difficult decisions that individual clinicians and teams have to make, and that individual families make and have to face up to themselves. But I’m determined we will do the very best possible for each family, wherever they live in Wales.

Andrew RT Davies AC: Cabinet Secretary, obviously the ability to attract staff into the Welsh NHS is a critical component of providing a modern and dynamic NHS here in Wales. The Royal College of Physicians brought forward their survey recently that indicated that of the jobs advertised at consultant level, at least 40 per cent went unfulfilled, and many of them didn’t even have any applicants applying for those jobs. How confident are you that, when this assessment is made in 12 months’ time, the Welsh Government, along with the health boards, will have made progress in attracting more consultants into Wales, and importantly getting applications for jobs wherever those consultant jobs exist in Wales?

Vaughan Gething AC: Well, the point about the recruitment to the medical workforce are challenges, as you know, across the UK system. Here in Wales, we’re certainly not immune to those challenges, and they vary slightly, but often we see exactly the same challenges in every nation within the UK. So, that’s why our strategy on recruitment and retention is important and that’s why it’s allied to training within Wales and, indeed, encouraging people to come to us to see about the whole package. So, training looks at all those different factors.But it always goes back to comments I’ve made before, and I’ll make again, about needing to understand what are attractive models of care for people to come to. For example, in Aneurin Bevan, following the reconfiguration of their stroke services, which was difficult—not everyone wanted to see stroke services centralised into a specialised centre—actually we’ve seen outcomes improve for patients. We’ve also made it easier to recruit consultant staff into that new and up-to-date model of care. So, there’s a range of different things that we need to balance.And part of what we have to do is not just to have an ambition from the Government, but we have to listen to people within the service and work alongside them in understanding how we make Wales a more attractive place for people to come to live in and to work, and what we then need to do for the training and the wider support around that. I also think that the creation of Health Education Wales will put us in a better position to have that broad, strategic overview, to make sure that we have the very best prospects to encourage and recruit and retain all of the staff we need to run a high-quality, modern healthcare system.

<p>Questions Without Notice from Party Spokespeople</p>

Questions now from party spokespeople. The Plaid Cymru spokesperson, Rhun ap Iorwerth.

Rhun ap Iorwerth AC: Thank you, Presiding Officer. There will be a debate held in the Chamber this afternoon on obesity, and that underlines the threat that this poses to public health in Wales. How much does the Government spend and what resources is it investing in trying to tackle and prevent obesity in Wales?

Rebecca Evans AC: Well, it’s very difficult to give a particular answer in terms of pounds and pence as to what we spend on this agenda, because it is so wide ranging. Our approach to it takes in active travel, for example, so there’s all the work that we’re doing through the department that Ken Skates leads, but also work that we’re doing in terms of our support for public health more generally—our work through the healthy network of schools, for example. So, it’s very hard to put a particular figure on this, given the fact that the work we are doing ranges from schools, through local authorities, and through the NHS, and aspects of the NHS such as our exercise programmes, and so on. So, in terms of putting pounds and pence on it, it’s very difficult to say.

Rhun ap Iorwerth AC: Thank you very much, Minister, rather than Cabinet Secretary. Considering the cost of tackling and treating people because of conditions caused by obesity, considering the cost to the health service, however much is spent by the Government isn’t enough, and I hope that the Minister would agree with that. If somebody wants to give up smoking, there is a wide range of support available: nicotine-related products, support groups, there is also heavy taxation, of course, on produce, and the prevention of advertising and so on. As we can see that such steps have worked—have taken time, but have worked—and that’s reflected in the numbers that smoke now, does the Minister agree with me that we need to take a similar approach as we try to tackle this huge challenge in terms of public health, namely obesity?

Rebecca Evans AC: Well, I’m pleased that you have recognised the success that we have made in terms of driving down smoking levels, which are at their lowest level since records began. And we’re making really good progress towards our target of 16 per cent by 2020.You’re absolutely correct that tackling obesity is a very complex issue, and it does involve things such as taxation and advertising. We’re very pleased that the UK Government is committed to the sugar levy, for example. However, we are concerned that there doesn’t seem to be any demonstrable progress in that area. So, this is something we continue to push on, as we do with pushing for further and stronger action in terms of advertising as well. And, again, this is something that we make regular representations to the UK Government on. There is work here for Government to do, both at Welsh Government level and UK Government level. There are also things that the industry itself can do; for example, the work that the industry has done on a voluntary basis in terms of reducing salt levels in food is actually held up as a global example of good practice. So, there’s a role there for the industry to see what more it can do in terms of sugar and fat content too.

Rhun ap Iorwerth AC: With respect, even though I acknowledge the work that is being done in Wales to tackle smoking, when I’m talking about the successes that have happened over the past decades, I’m talking about successes that have happened on a worldwide basis as this problem has been recognised. It’s clear to me that we need to take a long-term approach, starting now, with regard to obesity too.I hope that the debate this afternoon will be a way to bring a number of ideas to the table with regard to further steps that could be taken here. But the parallel with smoking, I think, does give us one other warning, I believe. A huge amount of money has been invested over the years in preventing action by governments on smoking. Can you and the Welsh Government give an assurance that you will be restricting the influence of the corporate world on public health policy in Wales with regard to obesity too, so that we won’t have to wait for decades for action as we had to with smoking and also with preventing climate change?

Rebecca Evans AC: I thank you for that question and I’m very pleased that Members have chosen to have a debate on public health with regard to the individual Members’ debate this afternoon. I’m really looking forward to hearing the ideas that Members from all parties will come forward with, because we are interested in what works and we’re interested in innovative ideas, so I look forward to the debate this afternoon. In terms of learning lessons from what has happened in terms of tackling smoking, obviously we’re keen to see what has worked in that area and what we can read across to tackling other public health challenges, not least physical activity and smoking, but also issues around substance misuse more widely, such as the over-consumption of alcohol, for example.

The Welsh Conservatives’ spokesperson, Angela Burns.

Angela Burns AC: Thank you, Presiding Officer. Cabinet Secretary, the Royal College of Paediatrics and Child Health have highlighted that bronchiolitis in babies is a major winter pressure on the Welsh NHS. I’m sure you’re aware that the Joint Committee on Vaccination and Immunisation recommends palivizumab and Synagis as vaccinations that should be offered to high-risk groups to help protect against the effects of bronchiolitis. What advice has been provided to the health boards to ensure that a consistent approach to this matter is employed?

Vaughan Gething AC: We expect all health boards and the wider NHS Wales system to follow consistently the advice of the Joint Committee on Vaccination and Immunisation. That’s a stance this Government takes on each of these issues.

Angela Burns AC: I’m very pleased to hear you say that Cabinet Secretary because, in fact, in England, the NHS uses a centralised route of funding to pay for these injections, which ensures that at least the minimum guidelines are met. I’m sure you’re aware, but evidence is demonstrating that by considering small cohorts of at-risk babies, there’s a clear economic case for using Synagis due to the subsequent reduction in hospital admissions. However, there is widespread variation on the decision making in Wales with regard to babies being able to access medicine, with health boards taking different approaches and it’s slipping between the gaps in specialities. So, will you consider looking at a change in either the way the vaccine is funded or looking at changes in how you might be able to issue more guidance on this matter?

Vaughan Gething AC: Yes, and if the Member wants to write to me with the information that she believes she has, I will be happy to look at that and take it seriously and consider what we can do next to improve the position in Wales.

Angela Burns AC: I’m even more delighted to hear you say that. I just want to run past you one particular family, whose 12-month-old twin girls were 28 weeks premature. They’ve both suffered from bronchiolitis on four occasions this season alone, resulting in nine hospital admission days and six separate visits to A&E. These babies have been denied the vaccine as they do not fall within the strict vaccination criteria. However, the constant admission to hospital and having to persistently fight the virus has put a huge strain on the family as well as stunting the babies’ development, particularly one who has got cerebral palsy due to her being so prem. Is it possible for us not just to look at the health boards obeying the guidance issued by the JCVI, but also enable them to be a little bit more lateral in their thinking in such circumstances so that they would look at the overall picture and demonstrate the flexibility allowed to help alleviate the pressure on their hospitals, on NHS finances and on that family, families like them, and those babies? It is £600 per injection compared to nine hospital stays and six visits to A&E. I would have thought that it’s patently obvious.

Vaughan Gething AC: Thank you for the follow-up question and the example. As I regularly say, we take an evidence-based approach and we look at the evidence and the expert guidance that the JCVI provides. I think it’s important to understand whether or not the vaccine would be effective in avoiding the admissions and the course of treatment that you outlined in the individual case. It’s also important to understand whether there is an alternative route to treatment, whether it’s the vaccine or another form. And of course this goes back to the treating clinicians understanding and advising on what is the best course of treatment. We know that there are individual patient funding request routes for treatment that falls outside the normal routes. But I think the most helpful thing is for us to receive the correspondence from you outlining the current position, so that I can look at that properly and seriously and I’d be happy to have a follow-up conversation with you.

Angela Burns AC: Thank you.

UKIP spokesperson, Caroline Jones.

Caroline Jones AC: Diolch, Lywydd. Cabinet Secretary, it was extremely distressing to read in the papers of a family’s torment of an 86-year-old man who killed his dementia-suffering wife, aged 85, and then, himself unable to cope, stepped in front of a train. He was his wife’s devoted carer and they leave six children who feel let down and claim social services provision was inadequate. This is unacceptable and we need to improve collaboration as well as communication between departments to prevent people, like this couple from Cardiff, from slipping through the cracks in our system. Whilst our condolences go out to the family, what lessons can we learn and how can we prevent this tragic situation from happening again?

Vaughan Gething AC: I recognise the particular example that the Member highlights. It is a truly tragic case that I understand the family will be incredibly upset about. The challenge in learning lessons not just from this individual matter, but the broader societal challenge we face, is where is the division of responsibility between individuals and their families, between social care and the healthcare service as well. What can we each expect from each other and how do we then make sure that we become a generally dementia-friendly nation?You will know that I’ve given a commitment in this Chamber to a range of Members who have taken an interest in this particular area that the dementia action plan that we are consulting on will have a draft for consultation issued before the end of this calendar year. That will set out the position of the Government, having worked with and listened to stakeholders, the third sector and individuals themselves living with dementia, to try and understand what we have now but also what we could do in the future. I expect to make a statement to the Chamber at some point in the new year as well.

Caroline Jones AC: Thank you for your answer, Cabinet Secretary. In 2014, a review of residential care, ‘A Place to Call Home?’, was completed. It concluded that too many older people living in care homes had an unacceptable quality of life. Although a series of requirements for action on care homes has been implemented by Sarah Rochira, our older people’s commissioner, who is dedicated and has a team of dedicated staff, it is clear that her resources will be much overstretched to cover the whole of Wales. Now, more than ever, there is a need for the voluntary sector to become engaged. However, how can we ensure that our most vulnerable in society are treated with the dignity and respect that they deserve?

Vaughan Gething AC: I thank the Member for the second question. In terms of resources, we’ve just had a debate about the budget and we have to allocate budgets to each of our areas, recognising the reality of the restricted finance we have available to us. The challenge is not always about money, but I think the points that you finished on are really about the culture in the care that we provide and the way that that is commissioned, largely by local authorities, but in terms of the commissioning of healthcare as well, and what we would all expect for ourselves and our own loved ones too. That point about the dignity with which people are treated, that really is about listening to and properly engaging with the individual and their carers. That goes in to the direction of travel of this Government’s policy over a long period of time. It was started off previously by Gwenda Thomas in bringing a range of matters together about the citizen’s voice within social care. And actually, for the health service too, there is something about catching up some of the ground that social care has made. It’s not on an even basis—it’s uneven within social care; we recognise that—but it’s about generally having a greater engagement with and listening to the individual and their family and working with someone to deliver healthcare, rather than simply providing healthcare to or at a person. So, there are real challenges here, but I think we should all take some comfort in the fact that, the overwhelming majority of the time, health and social care deliver great dignity and compassion in the care that’s provided. But there shouldn’t be any reason or expectation that we’ll become complacent about the quality of care that is delivered.

Caroline Jones AC: Finally, Cabinet Secretary, there is much publicity and concern at present regarding top-up fees in care homes and what these fees are being used for. How can we assure relatives and, indeed, residents in care homes that their fees are being used appropriately?

Vaughan Gething AC: Well, where individuals pay top-up fees, it’s because they’re assessed, and either they want to pay a contribution on top or they’re assessed as being able to make a contribution. This is something about the commissioning of care, and it’s about who commissions that care and what standards are provided. There is something for the public sector in the way that care is commissioned, and you will be aware that the Minister is leading the implementation of the Social Services and Well-being (Wales) Act 2014 and the joint commissioning of a range of services between health and local government partners in the future as the Act is progressively implemented. You’ll also be aware of the role of individual families, too, because there’s something about the quality of care and how we get to that point. So, the public sector definitely have a role, but equally individual families have a role as well in the sort of care they wish to provide with and for their loved ones, but equally people going into care—it isn’t as if people are always in a position where somebody else is making those decisions for them. Where people are paying their own fees, those fees are paid by individuals who often do have capacity to make choices, and it’s about how we equip people to make those choices. That’s why the information and guidance provisions in the social services and well-being Act are so important. I remember, with a range of other people in the Chamber, going through the scrutiny and having exactly these sorts of issues highlighted when the Bill was going through its scrutiny and became an Act. So, we’re well aware of the challenges, there’s no pretence that we’ll resolve them simply by a certain point in time, but it is an issue we recognise exists and one we’re determined to see improve.

<p>The Availability of Common Ailment Schemes (South Wales Central)</p>

David Melding AC: 3. Will the Minister make a statement on the availability of common ailment schemes in pharmacies in South Wales Central? OAQ(5)0078(HWS)

Vaughan Gething AC: I thank the Member for the question. The initial pilot for the common ailment scheme, labelled Choose Pharmacy, which is also the name of the IT platform that helps to deliver it, included a number of pharmacies in Cwm Taf within South Wales Central. There are now 19 pharmacies in Cwm Taf who are already running the common ailment scheme, with a further 19 expected to come on-stream and have the IT platform enabled. Cardiff and Vale expects to enable more pharmacies to come on board to deliver the ailment scheme within the next financial year.

David Melding AC: Minister, I’m encouraged about Cwm Taf, but, as you know, 20 of the most common illnesses can be treated in pharmacies very well, and this relieves pressure on GPs. There is an advertising scheme—I think probably run by NHS England, but it still has application here in Wales—encouraging people to seek early advice, including visiting their pharmacies. Now, as I understand, there is there no common ailment scheme yet in Cardiff. I think this is a really good model, and it’s one that really should be used in urban areas, where access to pharmacies is usually very easy.

Vaughan Gething AC: I agree. That’s why this Government is committed to working with the health boards to ensure that at least half of pharmacies in Wales do deliver the common ailments scheme. We’ll then have broader coverage. Cardiff and Vale is not currently delivering the scheme, but it will be, over the next financial year, rolled out within the area. And I recognise exactly the point you make. It’s what was in our manifesto and it’s in our programme for government to make sure that we do deliver more services through community pharmacies, to free up GPs’ workloads and GPs’ time. We estimate that up to 18 per cent of GPs’ workloads and 8 per cent of emergency department consultations are for relatively minor ailments. I’m sure you’ll recall that, when we launched the scheme, I attended a pharmacy, a Sheppards pharmacy, and I managed to have conjunctivitis, coincidentally, at the time. Again, a common ailment that some people do go to their GP for when they don’t need to; it’s perfectly treatable within a community pharmacy setting. What’s been important, though, has been the sharing of a version of the GP record to allow the scheme to go ahead. There’s much more potential than just common ailments in that sharing of the record, and I’m genuinely excited and encouraged about where we are with community pharmacies in Wales and what more we can do within the health service.

Jenny Rathbone AC: As the scheme is entirely aligned with prudent healthcare, I wonder why it’s taking so long to implement. Where is the resistance coming from, and what are the ways in which the Welsh Government can get over them?

Vaughan Gething AC: Well, we actually ran a pilot on this before deciding on the roll-out, and I announced the roll-out in March last year. That actually came with an investment of £0.75 million to enable the IT platforms to go up. There are practical things to do to make sure the GP record can be shared. We’ve got sign-off and buy-in from partners, in particular our GP partners, to make sure that the record can be shared, because we want to make sure that the care that is provided within pharmacies is actually shared with the record, so people understand the treatment that is taking place. And I think that is the most transformational part of the scheme that we’re implementing. There should be more that we can do in the safe sharing of that record, with a proper login and with proper audit trails as well. So, I expect that we’ll make real progress over the next year and more. We’ve said that we want at least half of pharmacies to be able to deliver this scheme within the next few years; we actually think that we may be able to go further than that. There are health boards showing real ambition in making sure that community pharmacies are delivering more and more on health, because it is a convenient way to receive healthcare for the individual, but also for the health service a more efficient way of delivering many forms of the different care we’ve talked about.

Huw Irranca-Davies AC: Indeed, one of those health boards that has great enthusiasm for this is Cwm Taf. In fact, David’s question puts me in mind of my visit last week to Sheppards pharmacy in Llanharry where I was hugely impressed with the way that community pharmacies are now embracing these new opportunities with the support of Welsh Government to deal with common and minor ailments and, as the Cabinet Secretary has said, reducing the pressure on GPs and A&Es too. There was a real welcome on my visit for the restatement by the Welsh Government of its commitment to the community pharmacy sector with a £20 million investment to support and enhance pharmacy services in Wales. So, whilst I understand that the details of the funding announcement are currently being negotiated between Welsh Government and Community Pharmacy Wales, would he agree with me that there is a quiet confidence within the sector that, in contrast with England, where the funding is being cut over the next two spending cycles in fact—being cut—here in Wales we could see a significant expansion of the number of services you can obtain in a local pharmacy and not least, as the Cabinet Secretary alluded to, with the new Choose Pharmacy IT programme being rolled out by the Welsh Government, this might be the key to unlocking that sharing of data that will allow more people to be treated for common and minor ailments at their local trusted community pharmacy and less workload on GPs and even on A&Es?

Vaughan Gething AC: I quite agree, that is a direction of travel for this Government and there is a palpable difference in attitude between this Government and the UK Government to the community pharmacy sector. And it’s recognised and reflected back regularly from community pharmacy itself. In England, there’ll be a 4 per cent cut within this year for community pharmacy, going up to 7 per cent the year after. The millions of pounds that are coming out of the sector in England are not taking place here. We’re maintaining our funding for the community pharmacy sector and they’ve responded positively to the challenge that I set out about having a more quality-based system of payments. So, we’re not simply going to provide payment on the basis of volume and dispensing volumes, it will really be about a quality based element too. That is about them providing greater value and greater services to individuals. You’re right to point out that community pharmacies are embedded, they’re local, they’re available and they’re trusted by people. We need to take advantage of the fact that is the position of the highly skilled professionals working in those settings. So, I’m generally enthusiastic and positive about their role now and we expect to develop even more with them in the future as well.

<p>Orthodontic Services in the Hywel Dda Local Health Board Area</p>

Simon Thomas AC: 4. Will the Minister make a statement on orthodontic services in the Hywel Dda University Health Board area? OAQ(5)0094(HWS)[W]

Vaughan Gething AC: I thank the Member for his question. The health board is working to improve the provision of orthodontic services that meet the clinically assessed dental health needs of their population. This includes developing an outreach service, which means that children needing orthodontic treatment are being assessed closer to home.

Simon Thomas AC: Well, they certainly need to improve the service some considerable matter. Can I bring your attention and that of the Chamber to my constituent and the Presiding Officer’s constituent as well, Sheila Joseph, whose 15-year-old son was referred to an orthodontist for consultation for braces? He was told, living in Ceredigion, he would have a three-year waiting list to get braces fitted, whereas in Powys the waiting list is 8 weeks. She decided to spend £3,000 to have private treatment as she couldn’t wait for him to be an adult before he got braces. She now has to travel a round trip every few weeks to Carmarthen simply to have a five minute appointment to have them adjusted, because there is no outreach clinic for orthodontics available in Ceredigion. So, what steps are you taking with the health board, Minister, to ensure that first of all we get an outreach clinic, so that we don’t have the ridiculous three-hour journeys just to get braces adjusted and, secondly, to cut the waiting list in Ceredigion so it’s more commensurate with the waiting lists in other parts of mid Wales?

Vaughan Gething AC: I recognise there is a challenge, as the health board do as well, around the provision within the health board area, including in the county of Ceredigion. There has been a range of assessment clinics across the health board area including a number of clinics in Aberystwyth and I’ve answered a written question to you recently on this particular topic. So, I recognise that all is not as it should be, that some people do wait too long and it is a real challenge for the health board to confront and manage effectively. I’m actually looking forward to receiving a report on the state of orthodontic services across the country—an update on where we are. That should be provided at the end of January, with a greater explanation of where we currently are and where the need for improvement is. But Hywel Dda understand this will be an element that we’ll return to. They can expect that not just from yourself but families themselves who are waiting longer than they should do for the treatment that you outline and identify. So, there’s no sense of complacency and a recognition of improvement needed.

Paul Davies AC: Cabinet Secretary, I’m sure you’ll agree with me that the importance of good oral health care can’t be understated and this is particularly important in a social care setting where poor oral health care can affect people’s ability to speak, to communicate and even to eat. Hywel Dda university health board’s local oral health plan update recognises this issue, but outlines very little on what progress has been made in this particular area. Therefore, can you tell us how the Welsh Government monitors the effectiveness of Hywel Dda university health board in ensuring that oral care is integrated into general health and social care plans, so that those in social care settings are receiving the best possible services available?

Vaughan Gething AC: Thank you for the question. I recognise that this is moving on from the specific point about orthodontic services to general oral health care, but this is an issue I’ve discussed with the new chief dental officer in Wales and, indeed, made the point with the British Dental Association as well—that we recognise that oral health care is an important part of the whole person. It’s why we launched an improved scheme for oral health care within residential care settings in the last Assembly. I expect to receive updates on what action is actually taking place, because there is something about recognising the commissioning of care within a residential care setting and about the primary care delivery for that person as well. So, this is something that is in my mind. It is part of the conversation I had with the chief dental officer, and I expect to see further progress made within this term.

Question 5 [OAQ(5)0087(HWS)] has been withdrawn. Question 6, Steffan Lewis.

<p>Maternity Services</p>

Steffan Lewis AC: 6. Will the Minister make a statement on maternity services in Wales? OAQ(5)0079(HWS)

Vaughan Gething AC: I thank the Member for the question. We aim to ensure pregnancy and childbirth is a safe and positive experience for every mother in Wales, wherever they live and whatever their circumstances.

Steffan Lewis AC: Previously, the Cabinet Secretary suggested to me that Wales did not need a specialist mother and baby unit because such services were being delivered in the community, but on further investigation it appears to me that all but two health board areas in this country have no provision for specialist perinatal mental health care. Presumably, the Government, maybe even the Cabinet Secretary, conducted an impact assessment on the decision to close Wales’s last specialist mother and baby in-patient unit in 2013. Will the Cabinet Secretary make copies of that assessment available in the Assembly library?

Vaughan Gething AC: I’m happy to provide further information on the decision not to commission in-patient provision in Cardiff. It really came from concerns about the ability to provide the right quality of care and the safety of care. This is a highly specialist area for a very small number of mothers, and our challenge was whether we could safely do that in Wales or not. What I’m not prepared to do is to commission care that is of poor quality and to simply highlight the fact that it’s local as opposed to the right quality of care. We’re currently commissioning that service either within the English system in the north-west of England or, indeed, in Bristol for south Wales. Most of the care, though, could and should be provided within the community; that’s the point that I’m trying to make. We need to improve the community provision of care, because we do recognise that for a range of mothers, there are mental health challenges that come after the birth of a child. So, it’s a real need that we recognise. That’s why we’re investing additional sums of money in community provision, but I’m more than happy to make available to Members the assessment that we undertook, or the assessment undertaken by the Welsh healthcare specialist commissioning group on why that service was decommissioned within Cardiff at the time, and the most recent assessment of need and ability to do that safely and to the right quality for mothers here in Wales.

<p>Bangor Medical School Plans</p>

Siân Gwenllian AC: 7. Will the Minister make a statement on the progress of the Bangor medical school plans? OAQ(5)0088(HWS)[W]

Vaughan Gething AC: As the Member knows from our previous exchanges, I have agreed to consider the case for a medical school as part of the work considering the wider workforce requirements for health professional education and training in north Wales. Any decision needs to be supported by clear evidence that change would help deliver on our priorities to train and retain more staff for NHS Wales.

Siân Gwenllian AC: A medical school for Bangor has been included as a high-level project in the north Wales growth bid, which has been agreed and supported by each of the six local authorities in north Wales. A letter that I received from you recently notes that you are expecting a briefing from officials on this issue. I note that the words ‘business case’ have disappeared from the letter, but that’s what was pledged before the summer—a business case rather than a briefing. Can you give me an assurance, as well as people in the north-west of Wales, that the case to develop a medical school in Bangor is being given priority by you and your Government?

Vaughan Gething AC: Yes, I’m happy to confirm that a range of active discussions have taken place with stakeholders in north Wales, including with local government, Bangor University, Glyndŵr University and Cardiff University, who all take part in the current north Wales clinical school. We need to receive a business case setting out the evidence for a potential medical school. I expect to receive a briefing on the updated work that is ongoing. The important point here is doing the right thing to ensure we actually provide greater opportunity for training to take place within Wales, for recruitment and retention to take place in Wales, and how we give people different opportunities and enhanced opportunities to undertake their medical training within north Wales and across the country more broadly. The North Wales Clinical School has helped to do some of that. It means there are more fourth and fifth year placements taking place within north Wales, and that’s practically led to more juniors choosing to come to Wales after a placement within north Wales. We need to understand what’s been successful about that and what more we could do. That fits into our shared expectation and desire to have a healthcare system that has the right quality of training, retains and recruits the right staff that have the sort of healthcare skills that we want, and really recognises and reflects on those, not just Welsh-domiciled students who may not want to train within Wales and may go to other parts of the United Kingdom for their medical training, but how we attract them back as well as attracting them from other parts of the UK and more broadly afield to come into Wales for their medical training. So, I’m genuinely open-minded about the potential case for a medical school in north Wales. I simply need the evidence about what is the right choice to make to meet those ambitions to deliver the sort of healthcare that we need.

<p>Improving the Standard of NHS Services (South Wales Central)</p>

Andrew RT Davies AC: 8. Will the Minister make a statement on what steps he is taking to improve health services in South Wales Central? OAQ(5)0089(HWS)

Vaughan Gething AC: We continue to work with all the health boards and trusts in the South Wales Central area to improve standards. This includes strong governance, leadership and performance management systems, the monitoring of incidents and concerns, quality improvement initiatives like our 1000 Lives Improvement programme and, of course, the robust inspection of services.

Andrew RT Davies AC: Thank you for that answer, Cabinet Secretary. I’m sure you, like me, would have been pretty horrified by the number of ambulances that are outside the A&E department at the University Hospital of Wales and the pressure that puts on the staff and the concern it puts in patients’ minds. I know I’ve asked for an urgent question on this particular matter because the issues around the A&E department are ongoing in Cardiff, around staffing issues. What measures are you taking to work with Cardiff and Vale to make sure that those pressures are alleviated, especially as we go into the busy Christmas period because it cannot be acceptable to have that many ambulances parked outside an A&E department, which are basically off call and unable to do the job that they’re doing around South Wales Central, of bringing people into our hospitals when they have an emergency.

Vaughan Gething AC: I thank the Member for the follow-up question. On ambulances, it’s important not to lose sight of the fact that we have a much improved service compared to where we were two years ago. But it’s part of a whole healthcare system: those that don’t need to call for an ambulance could be safely and properly treated within primary care—potentially going back to Choose Pharmacy; we still have relatively minor ailments arriving in our emergency departments—and what then happens to make sure people, if they do need to be in hospital, are safely transferred in a timely manner into the hospital setting, and, also, that they’re then able to leave hospital safely and go back into the community as well. So, it isn’t just one part of the system we’re concerned with. I think the photos of ambulances outside A&E departments always raise an element of interest, but I’m much more interested in how long does it take to safely transfer someone to the next point of their care, and the necessary part of the care journey. So, how long does it take a large number of ambulances to offload their patients to make sure they get into where they need to be and for those ambulances to then be released into the system? So, this is work that we’ve undertaken. Actually, there’s much more scrutiny on this since we’ve introduced the new model because of the quarterly figures that highlight the number of lost ambulance hours on handover. So, there’s been guidance sent to the whole healthcare system about improving handover, taking on board the excellence and the best practice in Cwm Taf within the South Wales Central area. So, there are a range of improvement actions and there’s no complacency about it. We expect there to be more challenge within the winter period, as you would expect in every part of the healthcare system, but I am confident that, over the next year, we’ll still see continuing improvement and scrutiny and challenge within the system as we understand more of what needs to work. If we don’t look at it as a whole healthcare system itself, then I think we’ll have the wrong answers at the wrong time and we’ll just transfer the pressures to different parts of the system. So, I think we have the right approach, but let’s not pretend this will be easy. The hardest part of the job is not for me as a politician; it’s for people working on the front line in very real and very difficult circumstances.

<p>The Safer Use of Prescription Medicines</p>

Dawn Bowden AC: 9. Will the Cabinet Secretary make a statement on any discussions with health boards over the safer use of prescription medicines? OAQ(5)0086(HWS)

Vaughan Gething AC: I thank the Member for her question. It is the responsibility of the prescribing healthcare professional to ensure an individual understands what it being prescribed and how it should be taken. Community pharmacists have an important role in ensuring the patient understands the medication regime at the point of dispensing.

Dawn Bowden AC: Thank you, Cabinet Secretary, for that response. Can I highlight some work that’s going on in Cwm Taf Local Health Board at the moment, who’ve been running a campaign to promote public education and awareness of the effective use of prescription medicines over about the last 15 or 16 months? Since the health board started its campaign, support and advice has been given to more than 7,000 individual regular medicine users around clearing out old medicines, identifying, if any, which patients are not taking prescribed medicines, bringing medicines into hospital if admitted, and taking when on holiday. One impact of the campaign has been the return of unwanted medicines in a quantity that would fill three double-decker buses.This may also highlight an issue around over-prescription, as well as patients not taking their medication, for whatever reasons there might be. Of course, the costs associated with that would also need to be addressed. But would the Cabinet Secretary join me in applauding this excellent campaign on the part of Cwm Taf university health board and encourage other health boards to consider similar initiatives?

Vaughan Gething AC: Yes, I’m happy to do so. It’s a very visible figure to think about—enough to fill three double-decker buses. We recognise that there are real challenges here and real areas for further improvement. The points you make are about old medicines and people returning those so that they can be safely disposed of, and, in particular, points about polypharmacy and understanding how different medications interact with each other or whether they’re actually counteracting the things they’re trying to treat. It’s why I’ve been encouraged by the fact that primary care clusters have indeed hired and actually employed a range of clinical pharmacists to do this for them, so it’s freed up GP time as well as improving the quality of care that the individual receives.It also goes back to the previous question about making sure that, within the community pharmacy system, we reward quality, and this is part of a quality measure to understand not just how we dispense by volume, but to improve the quality of care that is delivered. In fact, Cwm Taf have taken a lead in this, for example, with their electronic discharge letters from the hospital service, as well. So, there is a real gain to be made with discharge from the hospital setting, through the hospital pharmacy service, and a bigger role for community pharmacies there as well. So, I’m encouraged by where we are and where we’re going, but this does highlight that there’s certainly much more improvement we could and should make, and I think individual people see a real benefit as a result of that.

<p>The ‘A Regional Collaboration for Health’ Programme</p>

Mike Hedges AC: 10. Will the Minister provide an update on the ‘A Regional Collaboration for Health’ programme? OAQ(5)0080(HWS)

Vaughan Gething AC: Thank you for the question. The Welsh Government is supporting Abertawe Bro Morgannwg University Local Health Board and Hywel Dda Local Health Board, together with Swansea University and Trinity university in the development of a strategic business case, which we expect to be completed in the spring of next year.

Mike Hedges AC: Can I thank you for that response? I am also supportive of the principle of closer working between the two health boards and the two universities. I want to highlight the importance of Morriston Hospital as a regional centre for the area covered by the two health boards. What progress is being made on greater use of the hub-and-spoke model that has worked so well in renal services and could be applicable to other services, such as the orthodontic service that was discussed earlier?

Vaughan Gething AC: There’s real learning to take from renal services within south-west and mid and west Wales. Investments are being made across the patch in terms of the dialysis provision, but, in particular, I think it’s a useful opportunity to highlight that there’s genuine UK-wide leading practice taking place within the renal unit in Morriston, in particular dialysis at home and overnight dialysis as well. It makes a really big difference to individuals. If they’re able to dialyse at home, they get a much better quality in terms of the outcomes of their patient care, and particularly so for those people who are younger and those people who have the most active lives, and for parents, with the ability not to have their normal day-to-day life or working life interrupted by the need to go into a dialysis centre during the day. So, there’s an awful lot to learn about the way that’s already been developed.I’ve been really clear with the health service that this greater collaboration between health boards on the delivery of services across health board areas is part of what we need to see developed and progressed and implemented across the whole healthcare system within NHS Wales. So, there is lots of learning to take, and I’m generally encouraged by the progress that’s already been made by the two health boards and the university partners.

Thank you, Cabinet Secretary.

3. Urgent Question: The Wales and Borders Rail Franchise

[R] signifies the Member has declared an interest. [W] signifies that the question was tabled in Welsh.

I have accepted two urgent questions under Standing Order 12.66, and I call on Dai Lloyd to ask the first urgent question.

Dai Lloyd AC: Will the Minister make a statement on devolving the Wales and Borders rail franchise, following comments yesterday by the Secretary of State for Transport in Westminster suggesting that the UK Government will not devolve the franchise as a whole? EAQ(5)0098(EI)

Ken Skates AC: Yes. The Secretary of State’s comments relate to how legal functions might be shared in the future, and final agreement in this area is yet to be reached. What we would stress, as the Secretary of State has confirmed, is that Welsh Government will either receive functions in respect of cross-border services, or be able to exercise them on his behalf. The details of the agreements reached on legal functions will not affect the range of services delivered through the next Wales and borders franchise.

Dai Lloyd AC: Thank you very much to you for that response. Naturally, there was a great deal of talk yesterday following the comments made by the Secretary of State for Transport, Chris Grayling, who made it clear that full control of the franchise will not be devolved to the Welsh Government. That was contrary to what we came to understand was your situation, from your Government, and also the Westminster Government. We’re not talking about legal responsibility alone. He talked about more than that. He also mentioned day-to-day management yesterday. The Secretary of State said clearly, and I quote,nid ydym yn datganoli cyfrifoldeb dros y fasnachfraint gyfan ar gyfer Cymru... rydym yn gwneud hynny’n rhannol. Rwyf wedi dweud wrth Lywodraeth Cymru fy mod yn hapus iddi gymryd rheolaeth dros reilffyrdd y cymoedd, gyda golwg ar ddatblygu’r system fetro y maent yn gobeithio ei rhoi ar waith.Nawr, mae’r sylwadau hyn yn amlwg yn tynnu sylw at ddatganoli rhan o’r cyfrifoldeb dros fasnachfraint Cymru a’r gororau ac nid at ddatganoli llawn, sy’n gwrthddweud yn llwyr y sicrwydd a roddodd Ysgrifennydd Gwladol Cymru a Llywodraeth Cymru ar achlysuron blaenorol. Mae’n werth pwysleisio’r gair ‘rhannol’ yma gan fod hwn, os yw sylwadau’r Ysgrifennydd Gwladol yn gywir, yn gytundeb datganoli gryn dipyn yn llai nag oedd unrhyw un wedi’i ddychmygu hyd yma. Efallai y bydd Ysgrifennydd y Cabinet yn fodlon ymhelaethu ymhellach ar y trafodaethau y mae ei Lywodraeth wedi’u cael gydag Ysgrifennydd trafnidiaeth y DU ynglŷn â datganoli’r fasnachfraint. Er enghraifft, a fydd map y fasnachfraint yn parhau yr un fath, fel yr addawyd neu a fydd Llywodraeth Cymru yn etifeddu gweddillion masnachfraint? Mewn ymateb i gwestiwn ysgrifenedig gennyf ar 11 Hydref, dywedasoch eich bod yn disgwyl, ac rwy’n dyfynnu;y bydd y fasnachfraint nesaf... yr un fath ar y cyfan. Os na allwn, fel y dywedodd yr Ysgrifennydd trafnidiaeth ddoe, ac unwaith eto, rwy’n dyfynnu:gael sefyllfa lle rydym ni, y Llywodraeth yn San Steffan, yn ildio’r rheolaeth dros wasanaethau yn Lloegr i Lywodraeth Cymru,beth y mae hynny’n ei olygu ar gyfer gwasanaethau trawsffiniol cyfredol? Pwy fydd yn gyfrifol am oruchwylio gweithrediad y gwasanaethau hyn—Llywodraeth Cymru neu’r Adran Drafnidiaeth? Neu a fyddant yn cael eu hollti ar y ffin? Beth y mae hyn yn ei olygu ar gyfer gwasanaethau trên rhwng gogledd a de Cymru sy’n gorfod teithio drwy Loegr? Nawr, mae’r rhain yn gwestiynau pwysig y mae angen eu hateb os ydym am gael unrhyw eglurder ynglŷn â dyfodol y fasnachfraint. Bydd y Siambr yn gwybod, wrth gwrs, fod proses gaffael ar gyfer y fasnachfraint nesaf ar y gweill ers amser, gyda phedwar cwmnï gweithredu trenau wedi cyrraedd y rhestr fer ym mis Hydref.Ysgrifennydd y Cabinet, rwy’n gobeithio y byddwch yn gallu fy argyhoeddi, yn eich ymateb, fod Llywodraeth Cymru yn gwybod beth sy’n digwydd. A yw’r cwmnïau trenau hefyd yn gwybod beth y maent yn gwneud cais yn ei gylch bellach? Oherwydd, a bod yn onest, boed yn wleidyddiaeth amlwg neu’n anfedrusrwydd amlwg, mae’r modd y caiff y broses hon ei chamreoli ar hyn o bryd yn dangos bod Llywodraethau ar bob pen i’r M4 yn gwneud cam â Chymru unwaith eto. Mae eich plaid yn San Steffan wedi methu â sicrhau y byddant yn datganoli’r cyfrifoldeb dros y rhwydwaith rheilffyrdd i Gymru fel rhan o Fil Cymru, ac yn awr mae’n ymddangos na all eich Llywodraeth sicrhau y bydd y rheolaeth dros fasnachfraint Cymru a’r gororau yn cael ei datganoli’n llawn. Mae’r sefyllfa hon yn bygwth datblygu i fod yn dipyn o draed moch. Felly, gofynnaf i chi: ai canlyniad anfedrusrwydd Llywodraeth San Steffan a’r Blaid Lafur yng Nghymru yw hyn, neu a yw’n tynnu ôl yn ddifrifol ar un o bileri allweddol y rownd nesaf o ddatganoli i Gymru?

Ken Skates AC: I was intending to be, unlike the Member, generous in my response and suggest that it was a mistake of his rather than a mischief that has led him to assert many factual inaccuracies. But I’m going to begin with the quote that he repeated, from Chris Grayling, which he did not repeat in full. Chris Grayling said,‘I need to correct the hon. Gentleman on that: we are not devolving responsibility for the whole Welsh franchise’,and you then stopped, but Chris Grayling went on to say, ‘as he describes’. He went on to say, with regard to giving up control to the Welsh Government, ‘without checks and balances’. What this regards is ensuring that there is accountability for passengers that travel between English locations on the English side of the border within the Wales route. These are agreements that are yet to be reached, but I am on record as saying that it is absolutely right and proper that we should have accountability in place for those elements of the service. We’ve agreed with the UK Government—let me be absolutely clear, again, today—that all services operated under the current Wales and borders franchise will be included in the next Wales and borders franchise and that we will lead on the procurement of these services. The four bidders know that. The map, I said, would largely be unchanged. In fact, subject to us being able to secure train paths, we’ve also secured the Secretary of State’s agreement to operate services to Liverpool and Bristol under a future Wales and borders franchise. So, actually, even more so than saying the map will remain unchanged, in the future it looks as though we will be able to extend services.

Thank you, Cabinet Secretary.

4. Urgent Question: Avian Flu

[R] signifies the Member has declared an interest. [W] signifies that the question was tabled in Welsh.

I now call on Simon Thomas to ask the second urgent question.

Simon Thomas AC: Will the Minister make a statement on steps the Welsh Government is taking to protect birds in Wales from avian flu? EAQ(5)0075(ERA)

Lesley Griffiths AC: Diolch. I declared Wales as an avian influenza prevention zone, a precautionary measure to help prevent infection from wild birds. Working closely with England and Scotland, we are monitoring the situation and have increased surveillance. I have urged keepers to improve biosecurity and be vigilant for signs of disease.

Simon Thomas AC: I’d like to thank the Cabinet Secretary for that brief statement. There was some confusion this morning when we heard on the news that there was a ban on keeping poultry in the open air in England and Scotland, without any mention of Wales. It’s clear now that the rule is being implemented in Wales also. Can I ask the Minister, therefore, just a few questions that I think are relevant? First of all, has this been agreed jointly? The Minister said that there is collaboration, but was anything jointly agreed between the Welsh Government, the Westminster Government—DEFRA, which is responsible for England—and Scotland? And for how long, therefore, will this prohibition, or these rules, be in place? As we are approaching Christmas and perhaps the life expectancy of some of this poultry isn’t particularly long anyway, but, having said that, there are important businesses in Pembrokeshire producing turkeys, such as Cuckoo Mill Farm, and there is a free-range company in Cardigan—Postance and so on. All sorts of companies are preparing for Christmas and preparing to sell this produce. Does the Government need to take any specific steps to establish the public’s trust in the food chain, because the Government will know that, in the past, any risk of avian flu has raised concerns about produce, particularly meat in our shops? I hope we can avoid any sort of fear of that kind. The final question is: are there any specific steps that the Government is recommending, or intends to recommend, to food producers involved with poultry that could be taken during the next few weeks?

Lesley Griffiths AC: Thank you. Well, the press release did go out from my office last night, so I’m not quite sure why the press release wasn’t picked up. That’s not something, obviously, I have control over. The decision wasn’t taken jointly with UK Government, with DEFRA, or with Scotland. I had conversations with our chief veterinary officer yesterday. She has been in very close contact with, obviously, the CVOs from Scotland and England also. The order I signed last night is for 30 days, so it will last until 6 January. During that period of time, we will continue to monitor very closely. As I said, it is a precautionary measure that we’ve taken. I think the issue you raised about public trust in the food chain is very important, so it’s very good to have the opportunity here. I know the Food Standards Agency has said that the current scientific evidence or advice is that bird flu does not pose a food safety risk to UK consumers. Eggs are safe, for instance. I think it’s also very important for me to say that there have been no cases of avian flu found in Wales or in the UK, but we are monitoring the situation very closely.

Paul Davies AC: Cabinet Secretary, the outbreak of this virus is not a new issue, and, as you know, I already tabled questions on this very matter last week, so I welcome the opportunity to hear more about the Welsh Government’s action on this particular matter. I’m pleased that today you’ve announced that a 30-day prevention zone across Wales will now take place. Now, it is crucial that there are adequate funding and resources in place to ensure that agencies are confident that they have what they need to deliver disease control measures in Wales in the event of an outbreak. So, can you tell us what additional support and funding the Welsh Government is considering should the disease threat escalate? The Welsh Government also has a duty to effectively communicate any precautionary measures within the poultry industry and the wider animal welfare network in Wales. So, can you tell us what guidance and support the Welsh Government is giving to those affected by this announcement to ensure they fully understand the situation and what is required of them? Cabinet Secretary, you have made it clear that your department is monitoring the situation across Europe. Perhaps you can tell us a bit more about the specific work that has already been undertaken in Wales to identify the level of disease threat. I know that work has taken place elsewhere in the UK, but it is crucial that the Welsh Government also establishes its own monitoring arrangements to ensure that no stone is left unturned. Therefore, can you update us on the work that your department has done in recent weeks?

Lesley Griffiths AC: Thank you for those questions. I should say that the risk level of avian influenza incursion into the UK is at ‘medium’ for wild birds—that has been raised from ‘low but heightened’—and is at ‘low but heightened’ for domestic poultry. As I say, I do want to say very clearly that this is a precautionary message. I haven’t been asked for any additional funding. I think, when a decision like this is taken, there are obviously, again, precautionary measures in place with our poultry keepers et cetera to make sure that they are able to react very quickly to these decisions. I mentioned that the chief veterinary officers work very closely together. When I was talking to our chief veterinary officer yesterday, it was very clear that she had been having discussions with her team. There are no cases, as I say, in Wales or in the UK. As far as I am aware, the nearest case to us is Calais in France, and that’s been there for a little while. There are 14 countries across the EU and Russia that have cases of avian influenza, and I thought it was really important to bring this prevention zone forward. I know that England and Scotland did it. As I say, the decision wasn’t taken very jointly, but I thought it was good to have a GB-wide decision in this case. I do want to assure Members and the public that we will continue to monitor this very carefully.

Thank you to the Cabinet Secretary.

5. 3. 90-second Statements

The next item on our agenda is the 90-second statements. David Melding.

David Melding AC: Llywydd, 100 years ago, David Lloyd George became Prime Minister. The Government he formed led the allies to a hard-won victory, massively extended the franchise, and established health and housing as governmental priorities. Wales seemed to find a hero figure—the Arthur of legend. The first man without independent means to become Prime Minister, Lloyd George demonstrated that the Welsh could reach the highest offices of state. Although the Tudors occasionally thought of themselves as Welsh, or at least Shakespeare had those thoughts for them, Lloyd George was Welsh to the core. It was the very source of his energy. As Chancellor of the Exchequer, he had already reshaped the state. After his people’s budget of 1909, the primary purpose of the state was not to protect property but to promote the welfare of the people—Llywydd, perhaps I should say the ‘gwerin’. It led to that amazing battle with the House of Lords and one of the funniest quips in our political history, when he said that the House of Lords is‘not the watchdog of the constitution, but Mr Balfour's poodle’.Well, perhaps it went down better in Edwardian times. [Laughter.] Lloyd George is among our greatest Prime Ministers. Of his contemporaries, only Churchill and Atlee surpassed him—Churchill by ensuring victory in an even grimmer conflict; Atlee by forging a peacetime consensus for a welfare state. Yet, in his range, he had no equal. In periods of war and peace, Lloyd George displayed the highest statecraft. Llywydd, we live in a period of remarkable social and geopolitical change, and it is fitting that we should be inspired by the achievements of Lloyd George, which tackled challenges that were deeper still.

Leanne Wood.

Leanne Wood AC: Diolch, Lywydd. The struggle at Standing Rock reservation in the United States has captivated the world: the people versus the Dakota Access pipeline; an ancient and proud community versus the power of the corporations. In a year where the millionaires and billionaires seem to be winning everything, Standing Rock shows that popular resistance can still win. It shows that there are people who will not let our natural resources be damaged by those who only want to wreck the land for profit. By standing together, the people have won an initial victory in the struggle, but they and we must remain vigilant. Thanks to the power of social media, the native Americans have inspired people across the world. They asked for our solidarity and we gave it as part of the new activism where local struggles are connected globally. We in Wales know only too well the value of our natural resources. Was Tryweryn not our own version of Standing Rock? Remembering our own Welsh history, let us say today that Wales stands with Standing Rock.

Ann Jones.

Ann Jones AC: Diolch, Lywydd. Last Friday I had the pleasure of meeting four inspirational year 11 pupils from Denbigh High School, Amy Martin, Jessica Briody-Hughes, Holly Roberts and Katie Rowlands, who are Team Tachyon. They are the world champions for the second time in the F1 in Schools challenge competition, having swept the board for awards, defending their best verbal presentation and best sponsorship and marketing awards that they had won in the world finals in Singapore last year, and successfully retained in Texas this year. They have a cabinet full of trophies and have this year attained the FIA Women in Motorsport award to add to their impressive collection. They have fully embraced all the challenges using STEM subjects, and are gaining some valuable skills and experiences for their later life. Amy has been offered a place in the F1 Williams team academy and is keen to go on to a career in engineering. They are truly inspirational young women who have taken on the challenges of the project outside of their schoolwork. They’ve become mentors for primary school children taking the F1 challenge now, and made their families, their schools, their communities and me very proud. I hope this Assembly will also be proud of their achievements. Diolch.

Thank you to the Members.

6. 4. Debate by Individual Members under Standing Order 11.21(iv): Public Health

The next item on our agenda is the debate by individual Members under Standing Order 11.21. I call on Jenny Rathbone to move the motion.

Motion NDM6144 Jenny Rathbone, Rhun ap Iorwerth, Vikki Howells, Angela Burns, Dai LloydTo propose that the National Assembly for Wales:Notes thata) levels of obesity across Wales continue to rise and obesityis more prevalent amongst poorer communities;b) changing people’s eating habits is complicated and involves a combination of good food availability, affordability and cookery skills;c) the Active Travel (Wales) Act 2013 has yet to impact significantly on the amount of exercise people undertake;d) declining rates of smoking have only been achieved through decades of education and tough government action, and took place against the tobacco industry’s efforts to deny the science and block government action; ande) a combination of education, legislation and public procurement is required to tackle a growing public health problem.

Motion moved.

Jenny Rathbone AC: Diolch, Lywydd. One quarter of the adult population in Wales is obese, and nearly 60 per cent are overweight: a combination of too much alcohol, too little exercise and too much food laden with fat, sugar and salt. The consequences are serious in terms of diabetes, cardiovascular disease and many cancers. These three conditions are the overwhelming causes of early death and they threaten to undermine and indeed reverse whatever advances are made in medical treatment of life-threatening diseases. The chief medical officer’s latest annual report highlights that whilst the rich are getting healthier and living longer, the poor are not. The life expectancy gap is already as much as nine to 11 years between different areas of Cardiff alone. This is unfair, avoidable and something we should be no longer prepared to accept or tolerate. We need urgent and decisive action to tackle this health epidemic, which will otherwise bankrupt the NHS. Across the UK, it already costs the NHS £5 billion a year, and that’s projected to double to nearly £10 billion by 2050. And the wider cost to society will reach £50 billion a year. So, despite the five-a-day campaign, our vegetable consumption is in decline—no better than it was in the 1970s. Less than a third of all adults reported eating five or more portions of fruit and vegetables a day. People are simply not heeding what we’re telling them, and only 1 per cent of food advertising is spent on promoting vegetables.

The Deputy Presiding Officer (Ann Jones) took the Chair.

Jenny Rathbone AC: We’re in the grips of an obesogenic culture and we need to act now. Treating people wo have life-threatening levels of obesity is extremely difficult and complex. We must focus on prevention. And unfortunately and tragically, this is not just an adult disease. Over a quarter of our four and five-year-olds in Wales are overweight or obese, and that compares badly with 22 per cent in England. In the most deprived areas of Wales, that rises to over 28 per cent. So, despite Appetite for Life, despite the Healthy Eating in Schools (Wales) Measure 2009, Wales still has the worst rate of child obesity in the UK. Awareness raising alone hasn’t worked. Greater action on several fronts is required, across all levels of Government. We cannot go on like this.So, Public Health Wales, in ‘Making a Difference’, says there are three things we could do: first, we could restrict the marketing of unhealthy food, which is not a devolved matter and therefore not something we probably need to ponder on here; secondly, promote healthy eating in schools; and, thirdly, use taxes to get the message across. ‘Appetite for Life’ was introduced in 2008, and became compulsory in 2013. It got rid of the sale of fizzy drinks and sweets from vending machines, but I’m not convinced that it has produced the life change, and system change, that is required in all our schools. It’s fine as far as it goes, but it does not go far enough. How many school governors are aware that they are responsible for ensuring that the mandatory Healthy Eating in Schools (Wales) Measure 2009 is being observed? How would they go about knowing where the ingredients had come from, and what was in them? I’ve yet to see any training on this provided by my local authority, as a school governor.At the end of last month, I visited Cornist Park School in Flint. There, they have doubled the number of school meals taken since they adopted the Food for Life charter mark, established by the Soil Association. Children order their meal at registration every day, so they choose what they’re going to eat, and are guaranteed to get it. As catering staff know exactly how many portions they have to cook for, that eliminates virtually all food waste. The menu of six dishes to choose from is supplemented by a salad bar, which is actively promoted by staff. There are carrot and cucumber sticks in little bowls on the table, which pupils can help themselves to. At least 75 per cent of the menu of six options is freshly prepared from unprocessed ingredients. Seasonal products are promoted, and many children report that lunch is the highlight of their day.The headteacher says that the kitchen is at the heart of her school. Complementing the actual meals, the school uses food education as part of the curriculum, and pupils and their families are involved in improving the school lunch experience. At least once a year, the community is invited for lunch, helping to promote healthy eating at home, as well as at school. All of Flintshire’s 73 schools have adopted the entry-level food for catering mark back in 2002. The catering manager assured me that it is no more expensive than meeting the healthy eating in schools Measure, you just have to be a bit more careful as to where the food comes from, and why wouldn’t we want to do that, when we’re dealing with children?The cabinet member for education says,‘We want our parents to have confidence in the service, and this demonstrates to them our commitment to their children’s lunch time experience.’Why is it that other local authorities have not followed Flintshire’s example? The north Wales consortium of LEAs all thought it was a good idea back in 2012, but none have followed Flintshire’s lead, nor has any other local authority across Wales. Yet, across the UK, 1.6 million meals are served every day in education and healthcare settings that meet the Food for Life criteria, including our very own canteen. Over half our universities have a Food for Life award. Why would we not want the same for all of Wales’s pupils?There is an opportunity here for food producers too because Flintshire only has the bronze level of accreditation and, in order to get the silver and gold award, they’d need to be able to source more organic suppliers who can deliver within the price range and with the reliability that LEAs require. So, it’s encouraging to note that Organic Centre Wales has been working with the Flintshire school meals service to deliver a range of activities, including training for school cooks, farm visits, gardening support, and school-yard farm markets. So, the catering mark offers incentives for caterers to use more local produce, which would help to keep supply and demand for Welsh produce within Wales, reaping the benefits of having our own national food procurement service.Secondly, I want to look at what we could be doing to tax what is bad for us. Finland, France, Hungary and Mexico have all started to do this. In France, a tax on sugar and artificially sweetened beverages—presumably similar to what the UK Government proposes—as well as, in Finland, a tax on sweets, ice cream and soft drinks, have already shown some benefits. But, in Hungary, they’ve gone even further. Since 2011, they have a public health product tax on sugar, sweetened drinks, confectionary, salted snacks, condiments and flavoured alcohol. The beverages are taxed if they contain more than 8 gm of sugar per 100 ml and food is taxed if it contains more than 1 gm of salt or more than 275 calories per 100 gm. Sales of taxable products have fallen by an average of 27 per cent in the first year, and consumers are either choosing a cheaper, healthier product or a healthier alternative. Two years in, the WHO observed change across all income groups and age groups, but a greater change amongst younger people and lower income groups. Three years in, the resumption in healthy food consumption has been sustained and 40 per cent of Hungary’s food manufacturers have reformulated their products in order to avoid the taxation.Mexico has by far the world’s highest death rate from chronic disease caused by the consumption of sugary drinks—nearly triple that of the runner-up, South Africa. Excessive consumption of Coca Cola and other soft drinks kills twice as many Mexicans as the trade in the other kind of coke that Mexico is infamous for. Mexico, so far from God, but so close to the United States. Unfortunately, the United States is where most of the obesogenic food and drinks industry is based and it is the globalised, Americanisation of our diets that is the principal cause of our woes and certainly in Mexico. In the last 14 years, the consumption of fruit and vegetables dropped by 30 per cent in Mexico, and the consumption of beans dropped by half, which, along with rice and corn, used to be the staple diet. An 8 per cent tax on non-essential junk food and a 10 per cent tax on sugar-sweetened drinks has had an amazing impact in the first three years. There has been a 5 per cent reduction in the purchase of taxed food items, but a 10 per cent reduction amongst lower income households—a greater impact than that of tobacco taxes on tobacco consumption. The impact was concentrated among the poor who bear the biggest cost in terms of obesity and diabetes. As in Hungary, many companies reformulated their products to avoid the tax. ‘The BMJ’ has since said that this has had an amazing impact in terms of the amount of sugar-sweetened drinks that were consumed in the past. The impact of the tax overall on nutritional consumption and on weight gain or loss remains to be studied. But taxes, I think we already can see from these examples, do change what we eat and drink and our own health professionals are calling out for this. The British Medical Association has called for a 20 per cent tax on fizzy drinks and fruit drinks in a bid to combat our obesity crisis. Wales should be at the forefront in developing innovative policies in this area and should recognise that tackling the burden of diet-related disease will require a series of food-policy interventions, including the proven use of economic measures and price incentives. We cannot wait for the outcome of the Health Wise Wales research, being conducted by Cardiff and Swansea universities into the correlation between health and lifestyle; we have to act now.

Rhun ap Iorwerth AC: Thank you to everyone who is participating in this important debate this afternoon. I’m very pleased to be one of the co-sponsors of this motion.It’s no overstatement to say that obesity is one of the greatest health challenges of our age. The statistics over the past 15 years have demonstrated a very clear increase in the number of adults and children who are overweight or obese. That affects all age groups, as I say, which means that the tide doesn’t seem to be turning in the same way as evidence suggests that it has turned in relation to smoking and the consumption of alcohol, where younger people are less likely to be adopting lifestyles that are damaging to their health, as compared to young people in previous generations. What is particularly concerning, I think, is that childhood obesity seems to be worse now than it was even just a few years ago. I am saddened to say that my constituency of Anglesey has the poorest statistics for childhood obesity in Wales, with a little under a third of five-year-olds considered to be overweight or obese. Saying that this is going to cause problems in the future and is storing up problems for the future is clichéd, but it’s entirely true. Therefore, it’s clear to me that the need to tackle this problem requires from us at least the same level of effort, commitment and resource as tackling smoking has been afforded on a global level over a period of decades.In some ways, the parallels with smoking are very clear. The science behind smoking has been clear for many decades, despite what one former UKIP leader may think. But, of course, it was only in 2007 that the ban on smoking in public places came into force. Big tobacco had such a lot of power to limit, first of all, understanding of the science and then to prevent steps being taken to reduce the use of harmful products. It was only through heavy taxation, banning public advertising and providing consistent messages that we have managed to get smoking rates down. Even having said that, of course, the numbers are still too high. But, in some way, tackling obesity is going to make resolving the problems of smoking, or tackling the issues around smoking, look very easy. Although people understand clearly what the health risks of smoking are, with obesity the situation is a lot more complex and ambiguous in many ways. Identifying one type of food to tackle, in the way in which cigarettes were targeted, is more problematic, not least because companies and organisations behind certain produce are always going to bombard us with messages of, ‘Don’t pick on us; pick on someone else.’ On top of that, a very significant difference is that you can’t smoke cigarettes moderately without them causing damage, but you can consume many of these foods. Those types of food only become harmful when they are over-consumed. The NHS responds differently to people who want to give up smoking, compared with those who want to lose weight. People can be encouraged to use willpower to stop smoking, but statistics tend to suggest that that isn’t going to be particularly successful. For someone who wants to go a step further, there is assistance available, with nicotine products, support groups and so on and so forth. But, when it comes to someone who is obese and eager to lose weight, then that level of support isn’t available. The usual approach is to provide some dietary advice and to hope that willpower alone will be sufficient, despite the fact that the temptations of unhealthy food surround us everywhere we look. It’s only when the problems get worse will that patient perhaps be referred for more intensive treatment.Whilst Governments have taken steps to make the choice not to smoke easier for people, and have prevented some environmental factors, when it comes to obesity one gets the feeling that Governments are still making decisions that encourage individuals not to be healthy—they are still planning our cities around the car, rather than using active travel and so on. Sometimes, it isn’t even easy to get hold of information about healthy diets.Therefore, it’s clear to me, in conclusion, that efforts to tackle obesity will need an even more robust governmental response than was the case with tobacco. All departments of Government must be willing to commit to this in the long term, and to give real impetus to making sure that Wales is in shape and is a nation that is fit and healthy, because I fear that we aren’t fit and healthy at the moment.

Vikki Howells AC: As Public Health Wales reminds us in ‘Making a Difference’, their priority policy areas for creating a healthy Wales, over half of Welsh adults and around a quarter of Welsh children are overweight or obese, with particular issues in disadvantaged communities, such as my own in RCT, where the figure stands at 63 per cent of adults. If the numbers of people who are overweight or obese continue to rise at the present rate, by 2050 this will cost the Welsh NHS £465 million per year, with a cost to society and the economy of £2.4 billion. Linked to this are clear challenges around physical activity levels. Many adults don’t undertake the recommended weekly amounts of physical activity, with only one in three children meeting guidelines. Faced with these stark facts, I am happy to support this motion today, challenging us all to develop solutions that solve what has been described as an obesity epidemic and calling on all of us to use the levers at our disposal.Welsh Government has taken action. The Change4Life campaign promotes advice on healthy eating, and schools are expected to promote healthy food choices. Policies like free swimming promote access to exercise opportunities, and I was pleased to recently meet with Ramblers Cymru to talk about the Welsh Government-sponsored initiative, Let’s Walk, which celebrates the benefits of just 30 minutes of walking a day in improving health. Other initiatives, like Healthy Child Wales, will bear fruit in coming years. Interventions around childhood obesity are one of the cornerstones of Cwm Taf health board’s approach. The childhood obesity steering group brings the health board together with partners like Families First, Flying Start and Communities First to develop and improve services. Work completed so far includes the development of guidance for early years settings to ensure they include evidence-based information on nutrition and physical activity, a mapping exercise to determine the need for training, and a research report that considered the effective engagement of families in targeted child and family weight management programmes. Similarly, the Cwm Taf Healthy Schools scheme is another Welsh Government-funded initiative. This bridges health and education to holistically promote good health in school settings, using interventions like cooking in the classroom. I’m sure Members will join me in congratulating Glenboi Primary School in my constituency, which yesterday completed phase 4 of the programme. Cwm Taf’s approach also includes an antenatal element. The rate of obesity in pregnant women in Cwm Taf stands at around 33 per cent, and with this being a key indicator under the all-Wales maternity strategy, the health board has developed an appropriate response. Commencing in 2015, Bump Start is a specialised antenatal service to help women with a BMI of 35 or over to limit weight gain in pregnancy to healthy levels. Appointments and undertaking routine antenatal visits involve consultations with the public health midwife and a specialist dietician. In its first year of operation, the scheme has received very good feedback. However, there remains the need to do more. Crucially, unhealthy food remains cheap and easy to access, a point made strongly when the British-Irish Parliamentary Assembly, of which I am a member, took specialist evidence on childhood obesity. I know I am not alone in my disappointment that the UK Government has watered down the proposals that were expected in its action plan for tackling childhood obesity, especially around sugar and on the advertising of unhealthy foods. I am glad that Welsh Government Ministers have jointly written to the Secretary of State for Health pressing the case for tougher action, and have also put on the record again their commitment to using the powers that are devolved. Finally, I want to return to another theme that I believe offers a solution to tackle the crisis this motion considers. Members will know that I have previously referred to the nature deficit disorder, whereby children and young people in Wales consider themselves to have a weaker connection to the natural world than their peers in Northern Ireland, Scotland or even London. Initiatives such as Wales’s first nature kindergarten in my constituency, in the Dare Valley Country Park, have a remedial role to play, but we need to bring about a step-change in encouraging our children outdoors. Doing so will enable them to partake of the exercise that can tackle obesity and engender the habits of lifelong activity that will lead to healthier lives.

Dai Lloyd AC: I’m very pleased to be taking part in this important debate on a very important and serious subject. It’s important that we don’t just talk about it, but try to get to grips and tackle it. Perhaps I’ve mentioned in passing previously that, in another life, I am a doctor, but also, naturally, I’ve been dealing with problems stemming from obesity over the years. And it’s a combination, as we’ve already heard, of healthy eating—even though that’s easier said than done as well, and I agree with that. But it’s very difficult, sometimes, to get hold of healthy food. If you’re trying to go shopping in some areas, especially in our large cities, it’s very difficult to find healthy food in a shop that says that they do sell food. It is very difficult, and we need to get to grips with that. Naturally, there’s an element of trying to define what the size of a portion is. Those portion sizes have increased gradually over the years. Of course, in the middle of all of this, we need to emphasise the importance of breastfeeding, as well, for our babies, to give them a sure start, as far as we can, and to promote breastfeeding to give people that good start in life. There’s research that shows that that does decrease the rate of obesity as well.I was going to talk as well about it being a combination of what you eat and how fit you are—how much you move around. Diet is perhaps slightly more important than fitness, but we shouldn’t forget the importance of personal fitness as well. You don’t have to go to extremes, such as ensuring that you have the latest kit to go to the gym; it’s just about walking 10,000 steps a day—that’ll do the trick—avoiding the lift and so on, and walking everywhere as far as you can. We’ve heard from Vikki about the Ramblers and so on; it’s promoting walking. We used to do it much more than we do now. Just becoming a little bit fitter with that walking, you will see a decrease of 30 per cent in your blood sugar levels, as I’ve already said in this place, a decrease of 30 per cent in the level of cholesterol in the blood, a decrease of 30 per cent in your blood pressure, and also you do lose weight naturally. So, if we developed tablets that could have those effects, then we would all be calling for them to be prescribed tomorrow. But, of course, that’s natural fitness. That’s what brings those decreases in blood sugar levels, cholesterol levels and blood pressure. We just need to disseminate that information so that people can make alternative choices.In the time remaining to me, I just want to emphasise, as well as all of this education that’s needed, the importance of legislation in this field. As Rhun has already mentioned, we have been sharing the information on the bad and disastrous effects of smoking for many years, yet the levels of smoking in Wales were still stubbornly high, running at around 32 per cent until the year 2000. What’s happened is that we have legislated to ban smoking in public buildings. That has overturned how people think about smoking. Legislation can sometimes lead the way, and can change the way that society thinks about an issue. As well as all of the education that takes place, we need to legislate in this field as well. We need a tax on sugar, we need to legislate for a minimum unit price for alcohol, and we need to legislate to get rid of some of the things like trans fats from our processed foods. So, there is a role for legislation, as the motion states. Also, these large food and drink companies, as Rhun said, behave like the tobacco companies. They try to undermine all of the messages that mean that we would do something on a minimum unit price for alcohol and on sugar. We’ve seen those problems in other countries, such as Scotland. With this Wales Bill that is on the way, there’s a danger that we’ll lose the right. We do have the right at present to set a minimum unit price for alcohol, but not for too long if the Bill is implemented, as it is expected to be implemented. If we can’t have new legislation in place before the end of the first stage of a new Bill, namely in April 2018, we need to take urgent action. That’s why I welcome this important debate, but also the importance of legislating and taking action. Thank you.

John Griffiths AC: Diolch, Ddirprwy Lywydd. I think the challenges are abundantly clear, as we’ve heard from others, and have been apparent for some time, but no doubt will be coming ever more apparent because of the ageing society that we have, because of the pressure that brings on the health service. We’ve talked for quite some time, haven’t we, in terms of trying to be more preventative as far as the health service is concerned: looking at the wider determinants of health and ill health and trying to get on the front foot rather than being largely reactive. So, I think this debate is part of that dialogue, Dirprwy Lywydd, that’s been ongoing for some time and will inevitably strengthen because of the challenge we face. But I think it’s really important to have good, hopefully strong, local examples in Wales of what can be done in meeting those challenges. I’ve mentioned before, and I’m very pleased to mention again, that in Newport for some time we’ve been holding physical activity summits to bring together key partners: public health, Aneurin Bevan health board, Newport City Council, Newport Live, which is the leisure services trust, Newport City Homes as a housing association that took the transfer of local government housing stock, sport organisations like Newport Gwent Dragons, Newport County AFC, Natural Resources Wales—there’s a long list, Dirprwy Lywydd—and we’ve come together to look at these challenges and to try and make progress locally.So, I’m pleased to say that we’ve now reached the stage where the organisations have all committed a day a month of staff time to take the agenda forward. We’ve built an increasingly strong and active partnership. We’re looking at all sorts of issues, including how the active travel Act is effectively taken forward in Newport. We’ve strengthened the parkrun. I did the parkrun in Tredegar House in Newport a couple of weeks ago, and the energy there is absolutely tremendous; several hundred people at 9 o’clock on a Saturday morning doing the parkrun, enjoying it, socialising afterwards, talking about what else they’re going to do to stay active, fit and healthy. There will now be—it’s not yet established—a city centre parkrun along the riverside in Newport to build on the interest that’s being created. Throughout all of this, Dirprwy Lywydd, we’re also looking at other aspects such as healthy eating, linking with healthy eating networks in schools, and there will be particular projects as part of this coming together that address those issues in schools. I hope very much that we drive forward physical literacy in our schools, because one thing that I think virtually everybody is agreed on is that if you can establish and embed good habits in our young people as early as possible, it’s very likely that those good habits will stay with them throughout life to their benefit, and to the benefit of the health service and Wales generally. So, I very much hope that that report that Tanni Grey-Thompson did on physical literacy is taken forward in whatever shape or form through the curriculum reforms that we’re about to see, and is absolutely central to life in our schools. What I would also ask, Dirprwy Lywydd, is that, where progress is being made locally, as it is in Newport, that’s recognised by Welsh Government, it’s looked at very closely, good practice is spread and also that there might be some support. In the past, there was some discussion around possible pilot schemes where local projects were addressing these challenges of getting more physically active and a more healthy local population, and then there might be some support from Welsh Government to strengthen it, structure it and take it forward more effectively. So, I hope that will be the case, but whatever happens, I think we’ve got to the stage in Newport where there’s sufficient buy-in and sufficient energy, ideas and commitment to make sure that we do something important and valuable for our local population.

Gareth Bennett AC: Thanks to the five Members listed for bringing the debate today. There’s a range of issues under deliberation here, too many to cover in one contribution, so I’ll concentrate on the issues of obesity and physical activity, active travel being part of that. Levels of participation in active travel have not shown improvement, unfortunately, since the active travel Act was passed, and the independent charity Living Streets says that we are still dealing with a decline in the walk-to-school numbers as more and more parents drive instead of walking sometimes fairly short distances. We do need to do more to promote walking to school. I note that there has been a programme; can we offer some kind of financial inducement to schools for participating in organised walking groups? Also, there’s issue that Vikki raised first of all in her short debate that she did a few weeks back of outdoor activities. That’s another thing that schools can actively promote, which would, I’m sure, have a beneficial effect, but can the Government have any effect on this kind of thing being promoted in schools, particularly primary schools, because we need to start them off early? Can we give more support to local authorities over the funding of leisure centres, given that we now face the spectre of outsourcing, which could lead to an increase in admission fees? I appreciate that these are really local authority matters, but we could perhaps do something as a Government—well, I’m not in the Government—as an Assembly, sorry, to monitor this, at least, and perhaps to give some kind of support to local authorities in their subsidising of leisure centres, given that ultimately we could pay rather more in costs for the Welsh health service if we don’t do this now.Regarding older people, there is the issue of bowling clubs, which is quite often their only leisure activity. We had a recent case where a popular bowling club in east Cardiff was condemned to closure. Again, it’s an issue where it’s a local authority decision whether or not to subsidise these clubs but we could take some more active role, in the Assembly, in promoting these kinds of activities for older people—similarly, things like Nordic walking clubs, which we’ve had.Regarding active travel, I think we do have a problem in that we’ve also got now the Well-being of Future Generations (Wales) Act 2015, but there doesn’t seem to be anything linking the two pieces of legislation together. For example, there’s no active travel indicator in the Well-being of Future Generations Act that can hold public services boards or councils to account for their provision of active travel. This also affects the south Wales metro system because concerns have been raised, in the active travel board, about the requirements for active travel and whether they’re going to be provided for when we get the metro. Transport for Wales are setting the scoring for procurement and this could and should include standards to increase active travel to and from stations. I appreciate that we need to deliver the south Wales metro—that is the priority—but is the Welsh Government doing anything to ensure that when we do get the metro it does in fact include some good provision for active travel? Thanks.

Julie Morgan AC: I’d like to thank the Members who have brought this debate forward because, obviously, this is a critical issue. Previous speakers have described the situation in Wales, which is obviously a matter of huge concern. It’s clear that eating habits and exercise habits need to be improved—we’ve heard the statistics about that today. I’m very proud that we do have the Active Travel (Wales) Act 2013 and that it has been passed—a unique Act by this Welsh Government—and I think we absolutely have to make every opportunity to use it to its maximum potential. For example, I know that we are consulting on the local walking and cycling routes that communities themselves feel need to be prioritised. We’ve had a good response in Cardiff, I think we’ve about 200 people giving their input so far, but I think we’ve got to do more. We’ve got to make sure that more people in Cardiff and throughout Wales put out the message that we can develop safe walking and cycling routes, which I think is very important to encourage people to get fit and to leave their cars at home, and we’ve got that legislation there now at the moment. I think we’ve got good examples throughout Wales and we’ve got great organisations like Living Streets and Sustrans, who are working hard on these issues. I know that Sustrans is also considering targeting, in particular, young mums and mums-to-be—and I think Dai Lloyd mentioned this in his contribution—because the evidence does suggest that the biggest impact on whether people adopt walking and cycling habits is whether their parents travelled actively, so the example was there. We obviously can’t win the battle against obesity simply by promoting active travel, although I think there are great opportunities there. Changing eating habits is very hard, but I do believe it starts right at the beginning and I was pleased that Dai Lloyd mentioned breastfeeding—I expressed my concern that that was not in the chief medical officer of health’s report last week. But I know that the Welsh Government is concerned about promoting breastfeeding, but I just think that is something we’ve got to have another great push on. It is very important, as Vikki Howells mentioned—the importance of antenatal support and working with mothers. But it is very difficult to change eating habits, particularly with adults. However many public health campaigns we run, food still equals comfort for many people and also, I think one of the most important points is that poverty impacts on eating habits, and I think that’s something that I want to say a bit about now.The Child Poverty Action Group has just published a book called ‘Improving Children’s Life Chances’, which shows that, for both girls and boys aged two to 15, there’s a greater prevalence of overweight and obesity in the 40 per cent of children from lower income groups. And we know that. We know, through the work on health inequalities, that it is the poorer families who are more likely to be overweight. Research shows that foods that are nutrient-dense per calorie are more expensive. Data from the national diet and nutrition survey 2008-12 show that the lowest income group generally consumes less protein, less iron, fewer fruits and vegetables, less vitamin C, less calcium and less oily fish. And one of the reasons for that is that lean meat, fresh fruit, vegetables and fish are difficult and are expensive forms of calories. I think we all know that that food is more expensive. So, it makes sense that, when incomes are higher, you can afford better-quality food, which is why the effects of austerity and benefit cuts are so pernicious—because they do affect what people are able to eat.So, I think it’s very important that we do look at this in the overall context of people’s lives and I do believe that poverty has a big impact on what we are able to do. Some of those levers of poverty are not within our power in this Assembly, but I do believe that we have levers here that we can use and should use. People have mentioned a lot of those levers today, but I think it starts with the first food that you have—or we hope you’ll have—which is breast milk. It’s crucially important what happens in school in terms of healthy eating and there have been lots of suggestions here today, and the exercise issue that we know we can promote through the active travel Act. I do believe we have many levers here in this Assembly to tackle this very important issue.

Lee Waters AC: I only want to make a brief few remarks in response to some of the speeches here this afternoon. I’d like to wholeheartedly endorse what John Griffiths said about the potential of the parkrun. I recently took part in the new Llanelli coast parkrun, which was a terrific experience. Every time I’ve taken part in the parkrun, as somebody who is not a natural runner, I’m always warmly enthused by the support of the volunteers who really encourage you along. For most of the people taking part in the parkrun, were it not for that activity, they’d be doing nothing at 9 o’clock on a Saturday morning. For the £6,000 of investment needed to get them up and running, I think they are a no-brainer from a public health investment point of view, and I’m pleased to see them flourishing across the country.I wanted to talk in particular about the element of the motion around the untapped potential of the active travel Act, which I think is perhaps a little harsh, given that the Act has only recently become enacted, but I think it’s right to point out that we really can’t just see this as a tick-box exercise and nor can we approach it in a half-cocked manner. This is a huge opportunity to try and get people who currently take little or no physical activity to take some. There’s plentiful evidence to show that for those people who are physically inactive, the way to get them to take some physical activity is as part of their everyday routine, and simply expecting them to go to leisure centres or gyms is likely to be ineffective. So, this is a huge chance to reach a section of the population we most need to reach out to.I think we do suffer sometimes in this Chamber from what’s known as ‘cognitive dissonance’ when we say one thing, but we do another. We talk, in public health terms, enthusiastically about the value of active travel and physical activity, and yet, when we talk about an economic strategy, for example, or we talk about transport matters, we put this to one side, and we seem to think that physical activity is the responsibility of the health profession. When we do other activities, we don’t think about how those tasks can be used to deliver the rising levels of physical activity we need to see. So, for example, to return to a theme that I’ve talked about recently—the encouragement of free car parking in town centres. We should be encouraging town centres and towns that are cycle and walking friendly, and using scarce public investment to build in networks to encourage people to take those short everyday journeys. Some 20 per cent of car journeys are under a mile. A lot of those could be replaces by walking and cycling trips.In my town of Llanelli, for example, there was a proposal for an urban cycling network to connect people up with those everyday destinations they want to go to. But, unfortunately, the county council—pre-active travel days, but those schemes are now on the books—are focusing their investment on longer-distance routes and tourism routes, and not on those everyday routes. It’s essential, instead of hardwiring in policies that are going to encourage sedentary lifestyles, such as free car parking, we really need to be seizing every opportunity to build in physical activity to all of our plans. I note recently that Cardiff council has published an ambitious cycling strategy for the city, which we really must get behind and enthusiastically endorse. I know they’ve been having difficulty within the city region, for example. The city deal, which is still littered with very orthodox and old-fashioned thinking, where local authorities up and down the Valleys see an opportunity for funding and dust off road schemes that they’ve had on the shelves for 30 and 40 years in some cases. Cardiff, to be fair to them, are showing real leadership in building on the gains we’ve seen in the last 10 years in the city of increased levels of cycling, and they’ve put together an ambitious plan. But I know they’ve had difficulty within the city region in getting support for that. I’m pleased, in the case of the Swansea bay city region, that Terry Matthews’s vision hasn’t been about roads and enterprise parks—it’s been about digital connectivity. I think that’s the thinking that we must embrace. The active travel Act, as has been mentioned, presents us with an enormous potential prize within our grasp. But it can’t simply be seen as a duty that we have to discharge. It’s something that we must embrace enthusiastically. We must push—all of us in our leadership roles within our communities—to get people to feed in the potential routes they’d like to see as part of the integrated network maps, to get those everyday journeys put into the plans so that they are the first to be delivered. It’s a huge prize, and obesity will only be tackled by actions like these. So, we really need to abandon this cognitive dissonance, and scan every opportunity to build in increases in physical activity in all of our programmes. Diolch.

Thank you very much. I call on the Minister for Social Services and Public Health, Rebecca Evans.

Rebecca Evans AC: I’m very grateful to Jenny Rathbone, Rhun ap Iorwerth, Vikki Howells, Angela Burns and Dai Lloyd for choosing to focus on important public health issues in the individual Members’ debate they’ve tabled this afternoon, the spirit of which is consistent with our commitment to support people to be healthy and active. I really welcome all of the thoughtful contributions that have been made. Whilst we’re certainly doing a great deal to create the right circumstances and conditions for people to make healthy and active choices, we must also recognise that Government can’t do it alone. If we are to make the vision of the well-being of future generations Act a reality, we need a whole-of-society approach to maximise physical and mental well-being today, and to ensure that behaviours that benefit health tomorrow are understood and acted upon. This is a challenging agenda. Levels of obesity in adults have risen slowly since the first Welsh health survey began in 2003, and although levels in children are now stable, they are still unacceptably high. We know levels increase with deprivation, so there’s a compelling case to act in order to address health inequalities. We want to support the public to make healthier choices. Public Health Wales recently launched its 10 Steps to a Healthy Weight campaign to support this, and this does include a focus on breastfeeding. This complements our Change4Life programme and our other campaign work. Our Healthy Child Wales programme focuses on the early years, based on the evidence that maintaining a healthy weight in the early years has a long-term impact on levels of obesity and health in adulthood. Interactions with the health service are often opportune moments when individuals are receptive to lifestyle advice. Public Health Wales is developing its systems-based approach to this, which includes making every contact count. The aim is to equip staff with the skills needed to deliver brief advice to encourage small changes to improve health and well-being at every opportunity. But this agenda is complex. Improved education and skills, easier access to healthier food and public procurement policies all have a role to play. We also need more restriction on the advertising and promotion of high-fat, salt and sugar foods, particularly to children. Some of this work needs to be done at a UK level. We have long called for the Secretary of State for Health to deliver stronger action, such as tougher action on sugar and on the advertising of unhealthy foods to children, and we do support the UK Government’s announcement of a sugar levy on sugar-sweetened drinks, but we do need to see some progress.The food industry itself has a role to play. UK-wide voluntary salt reduction targets, considered to be a global example of best practice, have led to a reduction of salt levels in foods by up to 50 per cent since 2012, and this is certainly welcomed, but we do need the industry to do more.Influencing public procurement on this agenda is vital. The Welsh Government has already acted to create a national procurement service for Wales that is developing central procurement mechanisms for all public sector organisations. We are actively engaging with them to set procurement criteria that factor in nutritional specifications. NHS procurement already employs a dietician to do this. This will be a significant step in ensuring that all food and drink provided in our public sector is healthier. This will build on the nutritional standards that we’ve introduced in some of our public settings, such as schools and hospitals. We’re also developing similar approaches for other settings, such as early years and care homes, because we know how crucial good nutrition is for young children and older people.People themselves need to have the skills and knowledge that underpin healthier lifestyle choices, and schools have a key role to play in this. Our programme for government makes clear our commitment to work with schools to raise awareness of the importance of healthy lifestyle choices. We have a good platform to build from with our Welsh network of healthy schools schemes, and we’ll maximise opportunities to strengthen work in schools further through the development of the new curriculum.Today’s motion highlights the potential of the active travel Act to raise physical activity levels across the population, including for children. The active journeys programme, which works in schools to promote active travel amongst pupils, makes resources and support available to schools across Wales. This will be complemented by our Walk to School Wales project, which will develop a toolkit to support schools to review and improve active travel options in their areas. The Welsh Government provides funding for walking and cycling training, which is mostly delivered in schools, and these programmes will be reviewed in the coming year with a view to reinforcing the promotion of active travel. The Act further puts in place the framework to support active travel as a key element of building physical activity into our daily lives. It does so by mandating the planning of coherent walking and cycling networks in our communities and improving them every year. This year, we saw the first key stage of the Act with the approval of the existing route-maps of all local authorities in Wales, and local authorities are now working on the preparation of their integrated network maps. We’re working with local authorities to ensure that these genuinely reflect the needs of local communities and connect the places that they need to travel between. This requires input from a broad range of perspectives. Last week, I was very pleased to speak to an audience of planning, transport, environment and health professionals who are all keen to strengthen the links between their sectors and professions to move the active travel and wider health and well-being agendas forward. Working together, we will see the active travel Act impact on the number of people making active travel journeys.I am pleased that we can now report for the first time since records began that over 80 per cent of our adult population are non-smokers. This has been achieved by using the comprehensive approach outlined in our tobacco control action plan. This involves working with young people to prevent the uptake of smoking, working with smokers to help them quit and an increase in smoke-free environments. Legislation is part of this wider picture, including UK-wide work to introduce standardised packaging of tobacco products, and, in Wales, the newly established tobacco control strategic board will oversee continued action.I was pleased to recently have introduced the Public Health (Wales) Bill to the Assembly. The Bill has a particular focus on addressing health inequalities and creating conditions that promote the good health of children. The aspects of the Bill that relate to smoking are particularly strong in this regard, and I have no doubt that it will help us meet our target of reducing smoking to 16 per cent by 2020. The importance of creating the opportunities and the environment in which people can make healthier lifestyle choices is clear from the contributions that we have heard in the debate today. I hope that I have reassured you that we are taking a wide range of approaches across Government to do this. But, as I said, it is not something that we can do alone, and we look forward to working with a wide range of partners to accelerate progress in this area.

Thank you very much. I call on Angela Burns to reply to the debate.

Angela Burns AC: Thank you very much, Deputy Presiding Officer. I would like to thank everyone who took part in this debate. I am sorry, I am not going to go through all your individual contributions because I don’t have a huge amount of time, but there are just a couple of points that I really wanted to make. This is, if you like, a game of two halves, so let’s look at the children first. I am very glad that some Members mentioned the importance of getting them young. Minister, I would say to you that one of the key things that you could do today, now, within your power, without having to do huge great big strategies, would be to increase the amount of time we give to sport in school—not just increasing the amount of time that a child can undertake sport, but also to be far more creative about what physical activity means. To be frank, very few girls like team sports. Very few boys will like certain other things. There is a huge gender imbalance. Teenage girls are very conscious of their bodies, and I think that we could be very creative about looking at how we could bring on board dance, movement, running, single sports—encouraging all sorts of things rather than just saying, ‘If you’re going to do sport, you’ve got to do this kind of sport or that kind of sport.’ I think that it’s really vital that we address it. It’s also very vital that we address the amount of time that we give to sport. Let’s be really clear: in our schools, the amount of time that we give to sport has been decreasing over the last decade, and that goes in the face of everything we’ve spent the last hour talking about here. Of course, the other thing is, if we have healthy young people, they will grow to be much healthier young adults and older adults, because they will be used to the whole concept of going out, doing things, riding bikes and so on. The amazingly wonderful initiatives that a lot of you have talked about today are great, but do you know what? I couldn’t do a parkrun. I would probably last about three yards and fall over—bump, and I’d be gone. So, fit people—Lee—off you can go, and that’s brilliant. But there’s a whole class of us out there—. In fact, let’s be clear, 59 per cent of us out there are overweight or obese. So, what do we do for the 59 per cent, and how do we change the way that we talk about it? How do we stop it from being pejorative? How do we go out there and say to those people, ‘Hey, you don’t have to lose weight by going to a gym, surrounded by Lycra-clad bunnies, while you’re sitting there, wobbling away, trying to be fit’? That’s why large people—particularly women, but men as well—don’t want to do this kind of stuff, because it’s embarrassing. In fact, if you look at obesity in the UK, there’s a lot of psychology involved in this. There’s a huge psychological report on this, and it talks very clearly about the fact that we need to look at the exercise environment. It needs to be addressed, so that there isn’t an exacerbation of social physique anxiety, and so that fat people, large people, don’t actually feel incredibly embarrassed about trying anything, so they don’t try it. I think we need to look at that. We need to be much cleverer about how we target people. We have got a lot of very overweight adolescents. How do we get to them? What do we do about them? They don’t want to go to a gym, and they probably won’t go to a park. But, if we can train our health professionals in cognitive behaviours, they might be able to find keys that help unlock certain areas of our population and bring them back into the fold.So, in my view, the easiest things that we can do—. There’s a lot of other stuff that we talked about—taxes, sugar, this, that and the other—but they’re all big picture. Small picture: get our primary schoolchildren and our secondary schoolchildren doing a bit more activity—activity that they enjoy; activity that makes them want to carry on doing it. Give them better food. Since when has a cheese wheel been a food form, let alone good food? The people who are already overweight or obese: be kinder towards them in terms of how we bring them in and get them to do the activity they need, so they don’t feel ashamed, embarrassed and some sort of small dreg of society. A lot of overweight people just have that feeling, because of the national conversation, that they’ve become a problem. We need to help them and be kind about it.

Thank you very much. The proposal is to agree the motion. Does any Member object? [Objection.] Therefore, we defer voting under this item until voting time.

Voting deferred until voting time.

7. 5. Welsh Conservatives Debate: The Autumn Statement

The following amendments have been selected: amendment 1 in the name of Jane Hutt, and amendments 2, 3, 4, and 5 in the name of Rhun ap Iorwerth.

We move on now to item 5, which is the Welsh Conservatives’ debate on the autumn statement 2016. I call on Nick Ramsay to move the motion. Nick.

Motion NDM6182 Paul DaviesTo propose that the National Assembly for Wales:1. Notes the UK Government’s Autumn Statement;2. Acknowledges the announcement that the Welsh Government will benefit from an additional £436 million by 2020-21 to its capital budgets from the Autumn Statement;3. Notes that the UK Government will raise the National Living Wage to £7.50 to support jobs and earnings across the UK;4. Further notes that the Personal Allowance and Higher Rate threshold will increase to £12,000 and £50,000 respectively by 2020-21, which will reduce the income tax bill for 1.4 million individuals in Wales in 2017-18.

Motion moved.

Nick Ramsay AC: Thank you, Deputy Presiding Officer. I’m pleased to move this motion today noting the UK Government’s autumn statement—a statement that has seen a significant increase in capital funding for the Welsh Government over the next five years.Although admittedly times are still very tough financially, Wales is in a stronger funding position than it was before. Not just our view on these benches, but the view of economists like Gerry Holtham. The Welsh Government capital budget will increase by over a quarter in real terms over the next five years, from £1.28 billion in 2015-16 to £1.78 billion in 2020-21. This includes an extra £436 million over five years. That’s money that can be spent here in Wales on roads, houses, schools, hospitals—important infrastructure. We need to make sure that Wales plays a key part in the UK Government’s industrial strategy, which will pave the way for significant research and development money for our universities. This further strengthens Wales’s already cutting-edge reputation in this area. We know that there have been concerns about the effect of leaving the European Union on funding for research and development, so it’s important that we access funding where we can, prepare for the future, and develop our own industrial strategy here. To put it bluntly, we need to prepare Wales to seize the opportunities ahead. Of course, there are certain levers that the Welsh Government doesn’t have: taxes—well, at least until 2018. From April 2017, the UK Government will cut income tax, which will reduce the income tax bill for over 1.4 million people in Wales in 2017-18 and take 61,000 people out of income tax altogether.There are other levers that the Welsh Government does currently have—business rates, for example. Assembly Members will be all too well aware, I’m sure, of my concerns about the business rate revaluation and the effect of this on businesses in my constituency. And not just mine—there are pockets of business rate hikes proposed across other parts of Wales as well. I held a public meeting on Monday evening that was packed with worried shopkeepers and other businesses. Some businesses are facing massive hikes in their rates. Others are facing smaller, but still significant rises that they simply cannot afford. We desperately need a business rate relief scheme here in Wales that is at least equitable with that across the border, and all importantly, a sound transitional scheme. This is a question of fairness. Businesses need to be treated fairly. Can I take this opportunity to once again ask the Welsh Government to look again at this, and provide businesses with the support that they so desperately need in the run-up to next April’s revaluation coming into effect?Now, on the bright side, we welcome the UK forecast that the economy is projected to grow, with unemployment remaining at an 11-year low, whilst the International Monetary Fund has stated that the UK economy is the fastest growing economy in the G7 this year. The Chancellor said that that growth is forecast to be 2.1 per cent this year and 1.4 per cent in 2017. I give way to Huw Irranca-Davies.

Huw Irranca-Davies AC: I thank Nick for giving way. Certainly, having people in work is a good thing. We have to agree on that. But I wonder, what does he make of the Office for Budget Responsibility’s revised forecast now on wages, growth and investment? Because what they’re showing clearly is that a huge number, not a small underclass of people, but a large number of the people we represent who are going to be around about £1,000 a year worse off. For the people that he was talking about—the small businesses, the ones who want the business rate relief, and so on—those are the same people who won’t be able to spend the money in the shops. So, what does he make of that? What’s gone wrong here with the budget?

Nick Ramsay AC: The Member makes a very well-made and important point, and I don’t disagree with you that we mustn’t be complacent here, Huw. I think we would all agree with that. We know from a few years ago that forecasts can be wrong. That is the very nature of them. What I would say is that, overall, since 2010, we know that there’s been deficit reduction. We might disagree about the level of deficit reduction that was required, and that differs from party to party and Member to Member, but the economy is in a sounder position than it was before. But, that doesn’t mean that that wealth is equally spread. What I would say is that, in the wake of the European referendum, we definitely do need to make sure that the people that you represent and that I represent, the people in Wales, do actually continue to get an equitable share of the cake, because I know that that has been a big concern of Members here and in my own constituency as well. But you do make a very good point.The UK Government is seeking to clamp down on tax evasion. Of course, we have our own take on all this here in Wales with the devolution of some taxes in 2018 and the establishment of the Welsh Revenue Authority, currently in embryonic form.I’ve sat through—and I can see other Members who’ve done this—many hours of Finance Committee sessions scrutinising the new tax legislation, initially for the new land transaction tax. Measures to tackle evasion and avoidance are integral to the legislation. The GAARs and the TAARs are mindboggling. The Members of the Finance Committee will know what I mean by that and, when we bring it to this Chamber, you will all get your chance to see the intriguing detail of these aspects of tax legislation as well.I do think the Finance Committee is doing a good job of scrutinising this area and providing effective safeguards and checks. Although, of course, time will tell and this is uncharted water for the Assembly and the Welsh Government and we need to keep a close eye on how it develops. So, what extra funding will Wales get as a result of this statement? The Welsh Government capital budget will increase by over a quarter in real terms over the next five years. As I said earlier, this includes an extra £436 million for our roads, houses, schools and hospitals—vital infrastructure.From April 2018, the UK Government will facilitate the Welsh Government’s ability to borrow up to an overall limit of £500 million to finance capital spending. The £2 billion share of Welsh income taxes soon to be under the control of the Welsh Government will allow for an increase in this capital borrowing limit set by the UK Government. This will be one of the key outcomes of the ongoing fiscal framework negotiations. Can I once again put on record the Welsh Conservatives’ support for a fiscal framework? I’ve had many discussions with the Cabinet Secretary for finance about this and I’ve discussed it with his predecessor who’s in the Chamber today as well. This is an ongoing issue of concern for all of us here. It is absolutely essential, particularly now with the devolution of taxation. It is vital that future reductions in the block grant are properly indexed and proportionate in order to avoid the so-called Barnett squeeze, which has been a significant problem in the past, but threatens to be an increased problem in the future if we do not get those reductions in the block grant right.Although we continue to look forward to a time when the Barnett formula is replaced, the Welsh Government will continue to receive funding though the Barnett formula in the same way as the Government’s investment in areas that are devolved, including transport and housing. This places a greater emphasis on the need to scrutinise the Welsh Government’s investment decisions over the next five years to ensure that this money is being invested transparently and to deliver improvements to Wales’s infrastructure.The tax-free personal allowance has been increased again to assist working people across the UK and across Wales. Across the UK, this has cut tax for 28 million people since 2010, taking an additional 4 million people out of income tax. The personal allowance will be raised even further to £12,500 by the end of the current UK Parliament. This should reduce the income tax bill for over 1 million people in Wales in 2017-18 and take 61,000 people out of income tax altogether. If I can turn, in the time I’ve got left, to city deals, I think we would all accept we need to unlock growth and regional productivity, and city deals are key to doing this. We welcome progress in discussions on a city deal for the Swansea bay city region, the consideration of a growth deal for north Wales and the £1.2 billion city deal for the Cardiff capital region. There is progress on the north Wales growth deal whilst, closer to home, one of Cardiff’s iconic buildings, the old Cardiff Bay railway station, is to become a new museum of military medicine with £2 million of funding. I know that the previous Minister, Edwina Hart, backed that. I had some discussions with her back when she was an Assembly Member about that. There’s also £1 million extra funding to support the air ambulance service in Wales and an additional £1.5 million for Mind to provide improved mental health support for emergency service staff in Wales and England. Deputy Presiding Officer, I’m pleased to have opened this debate today. We are all well aware that times are still very tough financially and we recognise that the Welsh Government has a difficult job to do. However, Government is a question of priorities and making the most of the funding that you do have available. We believe that the autumn statement does at least leave Wales in a better position than it was before. What matters now is that we grasp the opportunity before us and make the most of the additional funding available to develop our infrastructure and to build a better future for everyone living in our country.

Thank you very much. I have selected the five amendments to the motion, and I call on Jane Hutt to move formally amendment 1 tabled in her name.

Amendment 1—Jane HuttDelete point 2 and replace with, renumbering accordingly:2. Notes the Autumn Statement includes additional capital allocations for the Welsh budget of £442m between 2016-17 and 2020-21.3. Regrets the UK Government did not use the Autumn Statement to end its damaging policy of austerity.4. Regrets the UK Government did not recognise the need for investment in the health service, social care and other essential public services in the Autumn Statement.

Amendment 1 moved.

Jane Hutt AC: Formally.

Thank you very much. I call on Adam Price to move amendments 2, 3, 4 and 5, tabled in the name of Rhun ap Iorwerth.

Amendment 2—Rhun ap IorwerthAdd as new point at end of motion:Regrets that the UK Government failed to commit to a timescale for the delivery of electrification of the Great Western railway between Cardiff and Swansea, and the electrification of the North Wales Main Line.

Amendment 3—Rhun ap IorwerthAdd as new point at end of motion:Regrets that the UK Government failed to commit to delivering the Swansea Bay tidal lagoon.

Amendment 4—Rhun ap IorwerthAdd as new point at end of motion:Regrets that the UK Government failed to designate HS2 as an England-only infrastructure project.

Amendment 5—Rhun ap IorwerthAdd as new point at end of motion:Regrets the failure of the UK Government to devolve air passenger duty.

Amendments 2, 3, 4 and 5 moved.

Adam Price AC: Thank you, Deputy Presiding Officer. I’m pleased to have the opportunity to move amendments 2, 3, 4 and 5 tabled in the name of Plaid Cymru. Of course, in these amendments, we are focusing specifically on the things that were omitted from the autumn statement. It may be some sort of reflection of the different personality of this Chancellor. There is some suggestion that he didn’t want to follow the theatrical approach taken by his predecessor and make a huge number of announcements all at once. He perhaps wanted to hold certain things back. I do hope, with some of the things that I am going to raise, that that is the case and that we won’t have to wait too long for announcements that we hope to see.Amendment 2 refers to the electrification, not only of the Great Western line between Cardiff and Swansea, where there have been delays, which is quite unacceptable and which will, of course, impact on the economy to the west of Cardiff, but also the electrification of the north Wales main line. With regard to that, it is regrettable to see that there has been no agreement that HS2 is an England-only infrastructure project. There is evidence from KPMG that suggests that Wales would be worse off in terms of competitiveness as a result of HS2. Of course, because of its categorisation, there is no Barnett consequential as a result of HS2. That’s very sad, if truth be told. I spoke to the Secretary of State about this issue at a CBI dinner, but why is Wales not treated equitably in terms of air passenger duty? There is no rationale, nor is there any ethical reasoning for that, when Wales needs it, in this post-Brexit period, when there is all this economic uncertainty. Why aren’t we being given fair play? That’s what we’re asking for—the same powers as have been granted to Northern Ireland and Scotland.

Nick Ramsay AC: I’m grateful to Adam Price for giving way. I neglected to mention air passenger duty in my speech, but you’ve just brought it up, and you make a very valid point, and we will be supporting the Plaid Cymru amendment on air passenger duty. I think that would be a very important tool in the Welsh Government’s toolbox.

Adam Price AC: Well, I welcome that very warmly, and if this place can speak with one voice, then I truly hope that that voice will be heard in the corridors of Whitehall and Westminster. Finally, and to the same end, if truth be told, I hope that there will be support for this too. We do need progress with this golden opportunity that we have with the tidal lagoon. Dai Lloyd insists that it should be called ‘morlyn morlanw’ in Welsh. I’m not sure whether Dai’s terminology is trying to suggest something that isn’t quite clear, but I do like the alliteration. It’s almost ‘cynghanedd’ and it’s another reason for supporting it, if truth be told. Charles Hendry has submitted his report now to the Secretary of State, and therefore I do believe that we need to make progress and see that Wales does grasp this opportunity.There are some things in the statement that I would welcome: the additional funding for innovation, which has been mentioned by the Conservative spokesperson—the biggest increase in funding for innovation since 1979. I think it’s £4.7 billion in addition over this period, and an additional £2 billion by 2020. We must ensure that Wales benefits from this opportunity. There is talk about the creation of a DARPA, which is the American body that led, partly, to the development of the world wide web by Tim Berners-Lee. Well, why not locate that body, which will run this new fund for industrial challenges, not in the south-east of the UK but here, in Wales?

Mark Isherwood AC: Continuing the trend of recent years, the UK economy is predicted to be the fastest major growing economy in the world this year with 2.1 per cent growth forecast by the Office for Budget Responsibility. The OBR also forecast that the deficit will fall to 3.5 per cent of GDP this year and 0.7 per cent in 2021, the lowest in two decades, and that debt as a proportion of national income will begin falling in 2018-19 for the first time since 2001-02. However, the Labour Welsh Government spending machine measures success by how much spent not how well and continues to whinge about austerity rather than acknowledge that this was an inheritance not a choice, being defined by how much money you have to spend. They never complained when the previous Labour UK Government pursued light touch financial regulation, ignoring years of warnings that the UK banking system was more exposed to sub-prime debt than anywhere else in the world. [Interruption.] Labour left the UK with the second highest deficit amongst OECD countries and its biggest budget deficit in peacetime history. They still fail to acknowledge that if you have high debt, someone else owns you and that the alternative would generate bigger cuts. I give way.

Huw Irranca-Davies AC: I thank him very much for giving way, indeed. I would simply observe that, back in 2007-08 when I was a Member of Parliament, I recall standing up with the then shadow Chancellor supporting the Labour Government for the way that it regulated. They were both wrong on light regulation. They were both wrong. But I have to point out to the gentleman that the shadow Chancellor, George Osborne at that time, was saying that this was the way to run financial affairs. He was wrong, so were we. But don’t cast it simply at the Labour party. I think the whole world was wrong at that time.

Mark Isherwood AC: Had you been here, you’d have heard me warning in 2004 that we faced a day of reckoning, as somebody who came from the mutual banking sector and knew there was a ticking time bomb that wasn’t being addressed. The Chancellor has now been able to adopt more flexible rules for the budget deficit, but only because of spending discipline since 2010 and because we will no longer have to meet the EU requirement to get overall debt down to 60 per cent of GDP once we leave. The autumn statement was therefore able to acknowledge the need for further stimulus, reducing the income tax bill for 1.4 million individuals in Wales next year, taking a further 61,000 in Wales out of income tax altogether, increasing the Welsh Government’s capital budget for infrastructure spending by over a quarter in real terms to 2020-21 and discussing options for a growth deal with north Wales. Proposals for the improvement of the regional transport and economic infrastructure detailed in a growth vision for the economy of north Wales, developed by the North Wales Economic Ambition Board in partnership with the Mersey Dee Alliance and the Cheshire and Warrington local enterprise partnership, went to both the UK and Welsh Governments this summer. The UK Treasury responded by asking the ambition board to articulate their strategic priorities and to prioritise projects, and the board is currently working on this. However, the Welsh Government has dodged my questions about how and whether it has responded to the call in the north Wales growth vision document for the devolution of powers by the Welsh Government over employment, taxes, skills and transport, which it states would boost the economy, jobs and productivity, create at least 120,000 jobs and boost the value of the local economy from £12.8 billion to £20 billion by 2035. The UK economy is projected to continue to grow with unemployment, as we heard, continuing at an 11-year low. Although Wales has been the fastest growing part of the UK outside London since 2010, it began from bottom position and it’s thanks to the policies of economic discipline pursued since the change of UK Government in 2010. It is no coincidence that the two years coincide. With Labour in charge of economic development in Wales, however, we still have the highest levels of underemployment, working age worklessness and child poverty in Britain. Wales still produces the lowest value of goods and services per head amongst the 12 UK nations and regions. The UK Government has published a new draft charter for fiscal responsibility to ensure that future generations are not burdened with our debt and to restore a borrowing ceiling for stimulus during times of slowdown.The autumn statement details the UK Government’s commitment to maintaining fiscal discipline while recognising the need for investment to drive up productivity and support economic growth. In response, the Confederation of British Industry said that its emphasis on research and development and local infrastructure will help businesses in all corners of the UK to invest with greater confidence for the long term. The Institute of Directors said this was a sensible and sober autumn statement, and the British Chambers of Commerce said that the Chancellor’s strong focus on the growth requirements of our cities, regions and nations will not go unnoticed in business communities across the UK. Is it too much to hope that instead of undermining investment and jobs, the Labour Welsh Government will at last recognise that it has a responsibility to try and instil confidence in both the urban and rural economies by embracing and pursuing policies that improve productivity, competitiveness and resilience? Thank you.

Rhianon Passmore AC: I sometimes think I’m in a surreal reality. Let nobody be in any doubt, then, that this autumn statement is yet more proof, if it were needed, that the UK Tory Government treats Wales as an afterthought, with virtually nothing to say on the significant challenges facing our country. The additional much lauded £436 million for Wales, which we’ve heard a lot about, for the next five years, is indeed welcome, but it is simply a consequence of the Barnett formula rather than any real show of intent or support for Wales. In fact, it’s worth pointing out that infrastructural investment as a percentage of GDP has continued to go down under this Chancellor. Businesses and communities in Wales needed certainty from the Chancellor. [Interruption.] If I just continue for a bit longer. Certainty on the future of infrastructural projects like the Swansea tidal lagoon, action on electrification and articulated commitment to support vital investment in the south Wales metro. Instead, we have simply echoes and sounds of silence from the Chancellor on these important projects. And it is noteworthy and relevant that the Chancellor made no mention of the English national health service at all, even though we have had repeated lectures from those opposite about the purported merits of the English versus the Welsh national health service over the last couple of years. In contrast to this silence, Welsh Labour Government is investing a further £240 million in 2017-18 to meet growing costs and rising demands in health and social care in Wales. When the people of Wales needed real action, all we have got from the UK Tory Government is repeated reannouncements and silence. In fact, very little in the autumn statement will actually improve life for people in Wales, certainly not those suffering from personal independence payment, disability and in-work benefit cuts, high debt and stagnant wages. Certainly, paragraph 2 of the Conservative motion notes that the UK Government will raise the national living wage to £7.50 to support jobs and earnings across the UK, but the national living wage for 2017 is lower than projected just eight months ago, although I have to just warn Members to be very careful with the Office for Budget Responsibility’s revision against revision against revision of the targets that they cling to.

Jeremy Miles AC: Will you take an intervention?

Rhianon Passmore AC: Yes, carry on.

Jeremy Miles AC: I take your point about the OBR, but the OBR has also projected that the tiny increase is way below what even on their figures would be required to meet an actual living wage, and well below what the Labour Party are committing to introducing.

Rhianon Passmore AC: I completely agree with the Member opposite. I think it’s time the OBR did look at its revisions and how it revises its revisions on a very regular basis. I wouldn’t take them as a measure. So, the OBR was projecting a national living wage of £7.60 an hour in 2017. The Conservative motion itself notes it will be 10p lower, at £7.50. This is going to cost the average recipient on the national living wage over £200 a year. Those who cannot afford to lose out once again will lose out. Not only, therefore, is the Government’s announcement lower than it needs to be to meet their own commitment to £9 by 2020, it is lower than the actual living wage of £8.45. It is highly correct but at the same time shameful that failed Tory austerity has indeed produced a highly low age, low investment, high debt UK economy in which productivity is stagnating. Average wage growth is at its lowest according to the Resolution Foundation since the 1900s. That is the reality of this autumn statement. The Labour Party believes in a full and proper wage for a working day, and that is why we are committed to introducing a statutory real living wage. [Interruption.] I’m sorry, I would, but I really don’t have time to finish my point. Labour will halt the scourge of low pay by creating a new independent living wage review body to recommend an annual real living wage. And under the next UK Labour Government, we will strive to ensure that everyone will have enough to live on. Finally, I’d like to concentrate on the Welsh Government’s alternative approach. Despite an 8 per cent real-terms cut to its overall budget the UK Tory Government has given since 2010, the Welsh Government has done all in its power to protect public services in Wales from the worst effects of ongoing austerity and fiscal uncertainty. The Welsh Government will continue to do this to mitigate and innovate against the UK’s worst cuts coming.Welsh Labour in government have shown that there’s a different way to this failed obsession with austerity followed unconditionally by the Tory Government. It has been bad for growth, bad for wages, bad for debt and bad for the people of the UK.Lastly, it is right to state that the Welsh Labour Government has different priorities to the Tories in England, where huge cuts to local government, social services and public health budgets are already causing chaos and will store up huge problems for the future and for those who need to use those public services right now. It is right to state that it is universally acknowledged that the national health service is safer in Labour’s hands. I respectfully submit that comparison of the UK Tory Government autumn statement and the Welsh Labour Government’s draft budget shows and fully demonstrates that the prosperity of our people is safer in Welsh Labour hands. Thank you.

Russell George AC: I welcome this debate on the Chancellor’s autumn statement. My tone will be very different indeed to the last speaker’s, who seems to want to talk Wales down. It seems to be the glass is half empty with the last speaker—

Suzy Davies AC: No, completely empty.

Russell George AC: No, completely empty rather, absolutely. Now I welcome the UK’s investment in Wales’s economic future through a £400 million increase in capital funding over the next five years. This money, of course, is additional to the £500 million the Welsh Government will be able to borrow to invest as well from 2018, a move that the Wales Governance Centre has said could open the door for a large increase in the Welsh Government’s ability to borrow and pay for some of the much-needed infrastructure projects across Wales. My own view is—

Rhianon Passmore AC: Will you take an intervention?

Russell George AC: Yes, I will.

Rhianon Passmore AC: Thank you. It’s quite clear from statistics from the ONS that 4.4 per cent of our GDP spending was infrastructural under the Labour Government, and then it went down to 3.3 per cent, and then it’s gone down further to 2 per cent from Osborne to Philip Hammond at this moment in time.

Russell George AC: You continue to be ‘glass all empty’. Despite the gloomy forecast, we’ve got to remember that we close 2016 with record-low unemployment—[Interruption.]

I can’t hear his arguments, sorry.

Russell George AC: We close 2016 with record-low unemployment, significantly below the EU average, and with the British economy set to be the fastest growing in the G7. My own view is that making improvements to our infrastructure has got to be the priority for the UK Government and the Welsh Government, especially as a result of leaving the EU. Indeed, as a result of the funding security that the Chancellor has provided, the Welsh Government can be ambitious in seizing the opportunities for Wales in the year ahead, and there’s every reason, I think, to be confident for the Welsh prospects in 2017.But I agree with Nick Ramsay and Huw Irranca-Davies: we can’t afford to be complacent.

Excuse me, can we stop having a conversation between the leader of the Conservatives and the front bench there and listen to what Mr George has got to say, please? Sorry—carry on.

Russell George AC: Thank you, Deputy Presiding Officer. I think that my colleague Nick Ramsay also mentioned that the autumn statement sets out the firm funding foundations to invest in our roads and schools and hospitals to, of course, drive up growth and support the economy as well. Now, on digital infrastructure such as fibre broadband and fifth generation—this is one of my hobby-horses, I know—the autumn statement paves the way for homes and businesses to reap the benefits of greater connectivity and new technologies through a £400 million digital infrastructure fund and a further £740 million to trial superfast 5G mobile networks. Now, the Welsh Government always seems to be playing catch-up on this with regard to the Scottish Government and the UK Government. They seem to be behind all the time on this issue. The additional finances will go a long way to help in terms of the Welsh Government. The Scottish Government doesn’t have any extra powers to the Welsh Government in this regard, yet they’ve put a mobile action plan together and that commits them to collaboratively working together with the telecoms industry. The Welsh Government has not yet even got a similar plan even in its thinking. So, I do think that we need to be supportive, also, of our small and medium-sized businesses.During the Assembly elections, Labour promised to wipe out business rates altogether. Now, I’ve got to say, that’s a great pledge—I fully support it—but it has not yet been delivered, of course. The powers have been devolved for business rates since 2013 and yet we continue to wait for a permanent system of support for Welsh SMEs. There’s also an additional £16 million over the next four years in resource funding that the Welsh Government can spend on business rates and public services. The power to set business rates, I think, is one of the most powerful levers that the Welsh Government has got to get the economy moving. We’ve heard numerous issues with regard to Monmouthshire and my own constituency with regard to businesses suffering there. So, as I come to close, Deputy Presiding Officer, I would say there are plenty of opportunities available, but I don’t want them to remain opportunities—I want them to become opportunities and I hope that that will be the case for the Welsh economy in 2017.

Neil Hamilton AC: I appreciate the optimistic tone of the previous speech. We can support the Conservative motion today, but I want to concentrate, actually, upon the Labour amendments, in particular amendment 3, because this is a mantra that we hear in many debates in this place, about this so-called damaging policy of austerity. Well, what is austerity in current circumstances? The dictionary defines the word as ‘sternness or severity of manner or attitude’, much like the speech we heard from Rhianon Passmore earlier on, perhaps—I’m not commenting on the content of it, but I mean the style of delivery. But all it means, actually, in this context—austerity is living within your means. It’s something that we all have to do in private life and yet that is what the current Chancellor of the Exchequer is not doing, because between April and August this year, we’ve run up a budget deficit of £33.8 billion against a forecast in March for the entire year of £55.5 billion. The Chancellor has missed his target for spending reductions by a very significant margin. In effect, we are overspending by £6.5 billion per month—that’s £80 billion a year and that is equivalent to 5 per cent of our national income. It’s quite clear that that can’t continue indefinitely. There was a time, of course, when Labour Governments were committed to a balanced budget. The Blair administration, between 1997 and 2001, was a model of fiscal prudence, because, of course, they were following the plans of Kenneth Clarke in the previous Government. But after the 2001 general election, of course, the brakes were removed from the train and the foot was placed firmly on the accelerator, and instead of running surpluses on the current account, which is what happened in those years, everything went rapidly into reverse.

Huw Irranca-Davies AC: I thank very much the Member for giving way there. He’s right that, ultimately, we do need to, if not balance the books entirely, at least move towards a more balanced structure within the finances. But does he share with me the worry that, in this period of tightening of the belts, the growth in wealth inequality between those at the very top who seem to have done exceptionally well—and all the data will show it—and those at the bottom who have been punished, that’s the issue of austerity—not finding the balancing of the books, but balancing austerity on the backs of those who can least afford it?

Neil Hamilton AC: That’s one of the reasons for UKIP’s relative success, I would say, actually—the realisation of that. It’s certainly one of the reasons, I think, why Donald Trump is going to be the next President of the United States—the feeling of people who’ve been left behind by globalisation—and that’s not something that is going to be very easy to deal with. But I want to just concentrate upon this question of what austerity means and what, therefore, is our freedom of action to raise tax revenue to spend on all the good things that we would like to spend on. The fact of the matter is that the national debt was doubled in the 13 years that Gordon Brown was either Chancellor of the Exchequer or Prime Minister, but, unfortunately, it was doubled again within the five years that George Osborne was Chancellor of the Exchequer. From a national debt of £350 billion in 1997, it stands this year at £1.6 trillion, and now that’s 85 per cent of our GDP. So, the previous Chancellor set a goal of balancing the budget by 2015, then it was moved to 2020, and the current Chancellor has now abandoned that target altogether. The debt interest that is being paid, even at current rates of interest, is £50 billion a year. That’s money that could be better spent on the health service or any of the other good things that we would like to see the money spent on, but if we carry on borrowing under the illusion that there’s some great money tree out there from which we can pick off the fruits, then I’m afraid that debt interest is going to grow as a proportion of Government spending and there’ll be even bigger squeezes on health and social services.

The Presiding Officer took the Chair.

Neil Hamilton AC: This isn’t a miraculous realisation on my part. Many other Governments have found themselves in a position where they had no choice but to impose austerity. I’m old enough to remember the Labour Government in the 1970s, and I remember Jim Callaghan, the former Member for Cardiff South East, who, making a speech at a Labour Party conference in 1976, said,‘We used to think that you could spend your way out of a recession, and increase employment by…boosting Government spending. I tell you in all candour that that option no longer exists, and that in so far as it ever did exist, it only worked on each occasion…by injecting a bigger dose of inflation into the economy, followed by a higher level of unemployment as the next step.’Indeed, we don’t have to go back as far as Jim Callaghan, because we can read the words of Alistair Darling, and this is the final sentence or two that I shall say in the course of this speech. On 24 March 2010, asked by the BBC how his plans as the Labour Chancellor at the time compared with Margaret Thatcher’s attempt to slim the size of the state, Alistair Darling replied,‘They will be deeper and tougher—where we make the precise comparison…is secondary to…an acknowledgement that these reductions will be tough’.I’m afraid there is no escape from reality at the end of the day.

Mohammad Asghar (Oscar) AC: I’m grateful for the opportunity to speak in this debate this afternoon. It provides an opportunity to highlight the transformation that has taken place in the United Kingdom economy, thanks to the policies of this Conservative Government in London. Labour left behind a dismal economic legacy: Britain had suffered the deepest recession since the war, we had the second largest structural deficit of any advanced economy in the world, and unemployment had increased by nearly 0.5 million. The incoming Government had to make realistic assessments about the state of the British economy. This involved taking the difficult decisions required to reduce the deficit and to control spending.Thanks to their long-term economic plans, Britain has a strong and growing economy now. According to the IMF, the UK has the fastest growing economy in the G7 this year. Employment is up by 2.8 million since Labour were in power, and unemployment has fallen to an 11-year low. The deficit has been cut by two thirds and debt as a proportion of national income will begin falling in 2018-19. As a result, the UK Government has helped ordinary working families keep more of what they earn. Raising the tax-free personal allowance—[Interruption.] Let me finish a few things. If I have time, I’ll give them. Raising the tax-free personal allowance has cut tax, actually, for more than 28 million people, and 4 million people are totally out of tax altogether. The national living wage is going up to £7.50 an hour from next year, giving a further pay rise to 1.3 million people. Fuel duty has been frozen for the seventh year in succession, saving the average car driver nearly £130 and a van driver over £350 a year.We, here in Wales, have also seen the benefits of these economic transformations. They have allowed the UK Government to invest an unprecedented amount of money in Wales. We already have the biggest rail infrastructure programme since the Victorian era. The electrification of the Great Western main line and the Valleys line network stands in stark contrast to the record of the last Labour Government, which did not electrify one single inch of track in Wales in 13 years.Investing in rail electrification is one of the most effective ways to grow the economy in Wales. The autumn statement will see the Welsh Government benefit from a boost to capital budgets of over £400 million. This investment gives the Welsh Government the opportunity to greatly strengthen and diversify the Welsh economy. Gerry Holtham—listen to the people on this side, now—confirmed recently that Wales is no longer underfunded. That is his quote closed. The Welsh Government can no longer pass the buck and blame Westminster for their failure to deliver the changes Wales desperately needs. Hopefully, we can progress the M4 relief road, which is desperately needed to relieve congestion on this vital artery of the Welsh economy. I also wish to say something about the apprenticeship levy. I regret that the Welsh Government has failed to commit itself to reinvest this funding into improved apprenticeship training. This is money given by businesses, and it is vital that this is reinvested into training. Groups such as the Welsh Retail Consortium have expressed their disappointment that the Welsh Government is viewing the levy consequentials merely as a revenue stream. They could be used to boost and enhance skills training for people, particularly those in our most deprived communities, such as south-east Wales. Presiding Officer, I welcome this autumn statement, which gives the Welsh Government the chance to seize the opportunities ahead, in a way that builds an economy that transforms Wales and benefits the people of Wales. Finally, we just heard that because of our Government in London, all of Tata’s plants in the UK are going to remain open, and there will be no redundancies in the future. Thank you.

Huw Irranca-Davies AC: There has been a little bit of criticism today about those on this side of the Chamber who have been a little bit pessimistic in speaking—the glass is half full and so on. Well, I am going to speak this afternoon for those people for whom the glass is, indeed, half empty. When politicians like us wonder why people are lashing out against the establishment, I think that, sometimes, it is staring us boldly in the face. As Adam Price mentioned yesterday, when the Governor of the Bank of England—the bastion of the establishment; the pinnacle of the institutions of capitalism; the original masters of the universe—says that we are facing the first lost decade since the 1860s, or, as he remarked, last seen when Karl Marx was scribbling in the British Library, we had better take notice because history certainly will. Carney told the audience at the Liverpool John Moores University:‘We meet today during the first lost decade since the 1860s…Rather than a new golden era, globalisation is associated with low wages, insecure employment, stateless corporations and striking inequalities.’That’s the issue of the glass half empty. There are opportunities that have been mentioned, but for plenty of people, they see no opportunities. He said that the trickle-down economics favoured by some on the right simply don’t work, saying that while trade makes some countries better off—and, in my own words, some people better off and some corporations better off—he said that it does not raise all boats and went on to call for limited wealth redistribution. The instantly famous Liverpool speech will, I suspect, go down in history as the moment when unrestrained free-market capitalism looked in the mirror and saw something ugly and downright nasty. And here is the backdrop for the autumn statement. Does the autumn statement help reverse this crisis? Does it stack the deck in favour of the ordinary working man and woman, the vulnerable elderly, the young? Does it reconnect our politics and our economics with the people we represent? Well, we all know that working people are now facing a double whammy in living standards of lower wage growth and higher inflation next year. For the best part of a decade, we have had a drag on economic growth—[Interruption.] I will in a moment—productivity growth at negligible levels, and an even bigger, as was remarked, black hole in the public finances. The OBR has revised wages, growth and investment down over the next few years, while the deficit and debt has been revised up. In every single indicator we’re going in the wrong direction. Disposable household income is now expected to grow at a slower rate than previously expected. I will indeed give way to him.

David J Rowlands AC: Will the Assembly Member please recognise the fact that mass immigration is a huge factor in lowering the wages of the very worst off in society? It’s those people who are paying the price of 330,000 people a year coming into this country with no skills, and they are taking the jobs of the worst off in our society.

Huw Irranca-Davies AC: No, there’s a point of disagreement that we have. We can deal with exploitation of workers by dealing with exploitation of all workers. We can deal in a proper way, in a reasonable way, with controlled and well-managed migration. But let us not place all the evils that have been highlighted by Mark Carney and other informed commentators on immigrants. Please. We had today, out here, a large event with refugees who are here, present in Wales. Let’s not lay at their doorstep the ills of the world, because the ills of the world are in the way in which we have an imbalanced economy where the very wealthy benefit, and the very well off are looked after. In the rules of the game and in the autumn statement they benefit. It’s the poorest in society and it’s the poorest in your constituency and mine and others’, who get the brunt of this. It’s not the immigrants. It is the way that we are running the rules of the game. Now I would have liked—[Interruption.]

The Member is not giving way.

Huw Irranca-Davies AC: No, because I have a limited time, Presiding Officer. Can I just say—I’m going to run out of time here—we know that overall real earnings are now expected to rise by just £23 a week between 2015 and 2020? This means that the average annual wage will be a £1,000 lower in 2020 than predicted just eight months ago. For those people, the glass is half empty or even worse.I would have liked the new Chancellor and the new Prime Minister to have used their first autumn statement to change the approach to the disproportionate impact that Government policies have had on women, on ethnic minorities, and on disabled people. But instead, there’s been some tinkering, and they have refused once again to produce a proper impact assessment of their policies over the last few years and now on those groups. The Chancellor’s budget gives little to women, who’ve suffered the brunt of this style of policy. Dr Eva Neitzert, the director of the Women’s Budget Group, said: ‘Before the AFS’—the autumn statement—‘we were promised action to help the “Just about managing”’. The JAMs—the catchword of the day.‘While the increase in the minimum wage and reduction in the universal credit taper to 63p are welcome, they are a drop in the ocean compared to the cut in living standards of between 18 and 20 per cent by 2020 that women and the poorest households are facing because of cuts to benefits, tax credits and services since 2010.’I could go on, but I’ve gone over time. Can I just say this? The Governor of the Bank of England in the Liverpool speech called on politicians to develop a system of inclusive growth where everyone has a stake. This autumn statement was a chance to better share the proceeds of growth, or at least to spread the pain of austerity more equitably. It is a missed opportunity and my constituents, and many constituents of the Members in here today, are condemned to more of the same, and more of the pain. For many of them, the glass is indeed half empty, if not totally empty.

I call on Jane Hutt on behalf of the Government.

Jane Hutt AC: Diolch yn fawr, Lywydd. I do welcome this debate today. It provides us with the opportunity to respond to what can only be described as a missed opportunity by the UK Government. The Cabinet Secretary for Finance and Local Government issued a written statement on the day of the autumn statement setting out the implications for Wales. He also had the opportunity in the Chamber yesterday to hear what the autumn statement means for the Welsh budget and our future spending plans. But I do think today’s debate provides another chance—and clearly that’s been demonstrated this afternoon—to reflect on the impact of the UK Government’s austerity measures on Wales. We have had nearly a decade of the UK Government’s austerity policies, and they’re clearly not working. Alongside the autumn statement, as has been said this afternoon, the OBR downgraded many of its key forecasts for the remainder of this Parliament, and the future promises no great improvement. We can look forward to a budget remaining in deficit until beyond the end of this Parliament, with little or no improvement in living standards. If anything, we can expect a rise in inflation, continued pressure on pay awards and a continued deterioration of living standards. As Huw Irranca-Davies has said, austerity has deepened inequalities.If you then follow on, the powerful points that were made by Mark Carney, the Governor of the Bank of England—I would also like to repeat some of the points he made in Liverpool. He said that the UK has recorded only a mediocre growth in the economy and negligible growth in productivity. Meanwhile, the budget remains in deficit and Government debt has increased enormously. He spoke about the impact on people’s lives, as Huw Irranca-Davies has today, and he said:‘When combined with low growth of incomes and entrenched in intergenerational inequality, it is no wonder that many question their prospects.’But yes, Nick Ramsay, you’re right, in moving this motion, that the one area that offers some promise is the boost to infrastructure investment—something, of course, the Welsh Government’s been arguing for strongly for many years. We will make good use of the additional £442 million capital between 2016-17 and 2020-21. This injection does go some way to restore the cuts the UK Government has made to our capital budget over recent years. However, our capital budget will still be 21 per cent lower in real terms in 2019-20 than it was in 2009-10. It is disappointing that the UK Government hasn’t taken the opportunity to end austerity. At a time of rising inflation with an ageing population, let’s look at the changes to our revenue budget. An extra £35.8 million between 2016-17 and 2019-20—negligible. They don’t begin to make up the deep cuts we’ve seen to our public spending over recent years. And by the end of the decade, our revenue DEL will have been reduced by 8 per cent in real terms, equivalent to around £1 billion less for vital public services in Wales. Furthermore, as we debated yesterday, there are £3.5 billion of cuts in waiting for 2019-20, threatening more cuts to the Welsh budget. This perpetuates the uncertainty we’re facing at a time when providing stability and certainty is more important than ever.And what about other key areas where we have been seeking progress—together, I would say, across this Chamber—to help drive forward our economy? I agree with Adam Price, in moving your amendment; it’s disappointing that those key initiatives and levers, such as the devolution of air passenger duty and the importance of the Swansea tidal lagoon, were not supported in the autumn statement—another missed opportunity. Nothing was said, but I very much welcome the fact that the Welsh Conservatives are supporting our call, as they did in the cross-party Silk commission. There’s support for the call, across this Chamber and across parties, for the devolution of air passenger duty. Always, when we speak with a united voice, we have a stronger, more powerful case. And backing Mark Drakeford, as he has, in all important negotiations—as you say, Nick Ramsay, in terms of the fiscal framework—and of course arguing, as he is today at a JMC Europe on our needs in terms of the impact of Brexit.Ahead of the autumn statement, Mark Drakeford did write to the Chief Secretary to the Treasury to reinforce the Welsh Government’s support for the Swansea bay tidal lagoon and I am glad that both the Swansea city deal and the north Wales growth deal were both acknowledged in the autumn statement. We now have to see the UK Government move forward in terms of response.But, Llywydd, the Welsh Government has taken a different approach to austerity. It was set out in our draft budget, a budget for stability and ambition, which was passed yesterday in this Chamber. Despite years of austerity, we’re striving hard to protect our essential public services—and with results. As Rhianon Passmore has said, the people of Wales need certainty and real action.

Andrew RT Davies AC: Surely the most devastating critique of Welsh Government’s action to date on public services is the critique that came forward yesterday on education, which shows that a policy area where Welsh Labour have been in control for 17 years has delivered abject failure when benchmarked internationally against the best in the world? That, surely, is the fundamental critique of where Welsh Labour have let the Welsh people down? Through education, you give empowerment and you give prosperity, and you haven’t given that to many thousands of children right the way the length and breadth of Wales.

Jane Hutt AC: Well, you know, as the Cabinet Secretary said yesterday, that Wales now has a clear direction of travel. We have plans in place to develop an excellent professional workforce and we know what we want our new curriculum to deliver. And of course the OECD is very clear that we’re on the right track, and we are investing more in education. I will remind the leader of the Welsh Conservatives of the 20 per cent cut that they were going to make in education when they produced their draft budget. But also, of course, the Welsh Conservatives don’t take responsibility here, in this Chamber, they don’t recognise—they seek to undermine our public services, they don’t recognise that improving the Welsh NHS and ensuring it develops effectively to meet needs is central to our agenda, and how we have protected essential public services. Yes, I hope the leader of the Welsh Conservatives will join with me in praising the Welsh ambulance service. The impressive improvement in ambulance performance in Wales and the fact that it’s the only ambulance service in the UK to improve response times to life-threatening 999 calls is testimony to the hard work and excellent performance of everyone involved in this vital work. But we regret the fact that the UK Government didn’t recognise the need for greater investment in the health service. So, I think, just in terms of investing and the way we are taking this forward, taking our responsibilities seriously, we’re investing in our NHS and social services—health and social care. The latest figures from the Treasury show that the amount we spend per person on health and social services was 6 per cent higher than in England. A demonstration of our commitment: another £240 million in the draft budget. But, most importantly, our investment in housing and the announcement made by Carl Sargeant last week of £30 million—a new housing pact to deliver 20,000 homes. Our track record of investment in housing and building homes—and this is what a Welsh Labour Government delivers: building homes, meeting housing need, meeting health and education needs, benefiting children and families, tackling inequalities and a housing pact with the public sector, and a fiscal stimulus for our house builders. So, I doubt if even Mark Isherwood could dispute that outcome in terms of our £30 million investment. We will be steadfast, Lywydd—we will be steadfast and ambitious with the powers and responsibilities we have. After six wasted years of austerity, we will continue to provide a shield to the vulnerable, support health and social care, invest in our economy and skills and our children’s futures.

I call on Suzy Davies to reply to the debate.

Suzy Davies AC: Diolch yn fawr, Lywydd. Can I just say thank you to everyone who took part in the debate today, as well? The core of the autumn statement, of course, has been about the capital announcement and the possibilities for infrastructure. Adam Price expressed, of course, some frustration over the speed of development, but you didn’t demur about its importance. I will come back to infrastructure, but I want to start with the direct impact on families’ pockets, as a number of speakers have alluded to this, but primarily Huw Irranca-Davies, because I just want to reassure you that your points aren’t lost on us. We may all be looking at good news as far as the rest of the G7 is concerned in terms of comparisons, as Mohammad Asghar said, but Nick Ramsay was right: complacency is a friend to no-one here. Nevertheless, I hope that Members will be able to accept that the living wage and the change in that, the shift in the income tax thresholds and the earlier reversal to welfare cuts, which compromised the purpose of universal credit, are to be welcomed as steps to improve the prospects of those on lower incomes to help keep more of what they earn and assume greater control over their family finances. But, back to the importance of infrastructure and that extra 25 per cent capital funding that Wales will be getting over the Assembly period, Mark Isherwood made the essential point here that it’s how the money is spent, rather than the money itself that is the most important thing. And I think all of us will be asking Welsh Government over those five years to explain to us how that money will be used to invest in infrastructure projects that go beyond the short-time construction boom. Because it’s just as important to the family pocket as the tax and benefit breaks to have infrastructure that leads to good, sustained, good-quality employment, rather than just a big bang for your buck in a short period of time. So, I’m hoping, Rhianon Passmore, that you will help us in encouraging Welsh Government to get that infrastructure going and that you’ll be as keen as us to avoid the serial faffing around that the Government imposed on the M4, which would not put a penny piece in the pockets of your constituents, and they really would have benefited from those improvements and their ability to access different parts of Wales and, possibly, economic opportunities over the border. The junction 41 fiasco that some of us will remember with great scars cost—cost—small business owners in my region, local employers who employ people and pay them money. So, you can understand my concerns about her party assuming this essential and important responsibility for infrastructure. Leader of the house, we are all careful what you wish for.Russell George made it plain that infrastructure is not an aim in itself: it’s about growth. Growth means better job prospects, better wages, less pressure on small businesses to do the heavy lifting in our economy at the moment, particularly when they’re being faced by this failure to deal with crippling business rates. When we’ve faced criticism here that we talk too much about businesses and the economy and employers, let’s just remember that the opportunities for them are the opportunities for those who work for them as well, for those who work in those businesses, and for those who may want to set up their own businesses. I do say this though: businesses have done quite well in terms of support under both the London Governments since 2010 and I would like to see them respond by sharing the benefits of any growth that they’ve had with those who work for them. But if the Government here can’t help them with business rates, those benefits get eaten up by costs that they can’t control. For everyone to have a stake, as you say, Huw Irranca-Davies, we’ve got to give businesses, small businesses in particular, a chance to fill the glass in the first place. [Interruption.] I think I’ve got just about enough time.

Huw Irranca-Davies AC: It’s a very short intervention. Would she join me in commending coffee shops like the one—I won’t name it, but it rhymes with hosta—that sent my 17-year-old a letter saying the wages for the people who are baristas—and he’s one; not a barrister, but a barista—are going up? They said, ‘This is what we’ll be paying the 25-year-olds, but you’re a barista as well; you can do the job, we’re going to pay you.’ Why can’t everybody do that?

Suzy Davies AC: Listen, there’s no greater supporter than me for people setting up their own independent coffee shops, as it goes, so you picked the right person to talk to there. But on this issue of small businesses, leader of the house, I didn’t really hear anything about that in the draft budget that you referred to and that we spent quite a lot of time on yesterday.I’m running out of time now. I just want to mention Neil Hamilton. Debt reduction—well, of course, we all want see that, but I don’t think that the spectre of tariffs affects our future balance of payments, which obviously is a likely consequence of your position, or is going to really alleviate anyone’s concerns about what’s a very difficult problem. But it is an issue and I think it should concern us all, which is why I commend this very careful and this very steady-as-you-go autumn statement to this Chamber. Thank you.

The proposal is to agree the motion without amendment. Does any Member object? [Objection.] I will defer voting, therefore, under this item until voting time.

Voting deferred until voting time.

8. 6. UKIP Cymru Debate: Letting Agents Fees

The following amendments have been selected: amendments 1, 3 and 4 in the name of Rhun ap Iorwerth, and amendment 2 in the name of Jane Hutt.

The next item on our agenda is the UKIP debate and I call on Gareth Bennett to move the motion.

Motion NDM6181 Neil Hamilton, Gareth BennettTo propose that the National Assembly for Wales:1. Notes proposals from the UK Government to abolish fees charged by letting agents to tenants in England.2. Regrets that, on average, tenants are charged £233 in letting fees.3. Calls on the Welsh Government to:(a) take action to consider the impact of the abolition of these fees which has already taken place in Scotland;(b) bring forward legislation in this Assembly to ban renters fees, ensuring that costs cannot be passed on to:(i) tenants, by way of artificially higher rents; and(ii) private landlords, noting that they form a valuable part of helping renters on to the property ladder.

Motion moved.

Gareth Bennett AC: Diolch, Lywydd. Thanks for the opportunity of bringing this debate today. As many of us know, moving from one rented property to another can sometimes be difficult. I do understand this, as I have never had a residential mortgage, and hence have never been an owner-occupier. So, I have spent a lot of time in my life living in the private rented sector. Oddly, though, I do also have a buy-to-let mortgage, so I have also been a landlord. Hence I have also dealt with tenants from the other viewpoint. So, I do need to declare an interest when I deal with housing issues. But I also, hopefully, have a slight theoretical advantage in that I have been able to view the whole issue of property ownership and renting from both sides of the fence.To go back to what I was saying at the start, moving is usually a difficult and sometimes traumatic time. This this can apply to private renters, some of whom, of course, are entire families, as much as it does to owner-occupiers moving up or down the property ladder. Increasingly, in a UK facing a housing shortage, there can be problems with finding the right property and then securing it before it gets snapped up. Allied to this difficulty is the expense involved. Some of the expense incurred in moving is largely unavoidable. However, there are also added expenses that are not only questionable, but often downright unfathomable. These are letting agency fees.In England and Wales, this is a largely unregulated area. In the 1980s, when property prices began to become an exciting topic of conversation for more and more so-called upwardly mobile people throughout the UK, it was often sniffily remarked that, while solicitors and accountants required some kind of examination process to become qualified, there was no such requirement for estate agents and letting agents.Although, since 1981, we have had the trade association called the Association of Residential Letting Agents, or ARLA, that situation of non-regulation remains largely the case today. ARLA attempts to set a required code of conduct for letting agents, but the crucial difference here is that one does not have to become a member of ARLA to practise as a letting agent. It isn’t like the Bar Council or the British Medical Association. To quote a report from the House of Commons library from March 2015, ‘There is no overarching statutory regulation of private sector letting or managing agents in England or any legal requirement for them to belong to a trade association, although many letting and managing agents submit to voluntary regulation.’The situation here in Wales is slightly different, in that we have already passed the Housing (Wales) Act 2014. This introduced a compulsory registration scheme covering both private landlords and letting and management agents, overseen by the new public body called Rent Smart Wales. This licensing system provides a useful starting point for the subject that we are looking at today, since we now already have the regulatory framework in Wales to deliver further standards regarding the precise issue of letting agency fees. Why is this now such a burning issue? Well, with a dearth of available council housing and social housing, more people are having to go into the private rented sector to find suitable property to move into. This brings more and more people into the world of the letting agent. So, perhaps it is time to consider some kind of regulation for this sector, regulation that might perhaps complement some of the aforementioned measures that the Assembly introduced during the fourth Assembly term to regulate private landlords.Of course, there is no point bringing in regulation if there is nothing wrong with the sector. Unfortunately, the experience of a significant number of renters in Wales is that there are many charges involved in moving, in renting, even in renewing a tenancy, which add to the cost and which they often simply do not understand. Shelter Cymru, in a recent report, found that one in three tenants using letting agencies paid more than £200 in agency fees to begin a tenancy. Taken with the advance rent and bond, this means that the cost of moving into an average three-bed home in Cardiff is pushed up to more than £1,600. These are significant costs. Of what do these fees consist? Well, often they are covered simply by the catch-all term of ‘administration charges’. Before moving in, prospective tenants would expect to have to submit to various checks on referees and personal credit. However, many of these checks are not particularly costly to carry out, hardly justifying the sometimes exorbitant fees that are in some cases levied upon the prospective tenants. A report on the situation in England by the House of Commons Communities and Local Government Committee revealed many sharp practices that are probably equally prevalent in Wales. One of those cited in the report was drip pricing, a sales technique whereby charges are only revealed gradually to the prospective buyer, or, in this case, the prospective tenant. ‘Fees may apply’ is the operative phrase here. There can sometimes be double charging, where both landlord and tenant are charged by the agency for carrying out the same checks. In some cases, the landlord doesn’t know that the agency is charging the prospective tenant. In cases where there are multiple applications for the same property, the agents can make money from a number of prospective tenants, most of whom don’t actually move in. And prospective tenants looking for a new home can find themselves forking out for credit checks and other administration fees several times over before being able to finally, hopefully, move into a property. Perhaps the most pernicious types of these fees are repeat charges for sitting tenants who are simply renewing their existing tenancy. In this case, credit checks and personal references should no longer be required, but the more unscrupulous kind of letting agent will still apply a highly mysterious charge. Of course, letting agents do face costs, but their staple source of income is supposed to come from their percentage commission on the monthly rent on a property, which they rightly take from the landlord. So, excessive administration fees are simply a healthy bonus payment for them. In November 2015, the Consumer Rights Act 2015 came into law, a piece of Westminster legislation that also applied to Wales. This was supposed to force letting agents to be transparent when displaying their charges, so that consumers— in this case, prospective tenants—could make an informed choice as to which agent they wanted to use. Unfortunately, when Shelter Cymru investigated how well this was operating in the early months of 2016, they discovered a widespread flouting of the law. They carried out a mystery shop of 85 letting agents across Wales to see how they displayed their charges and whether or not these charges remained consistent. The law requires agents to show a full list of fees in the office and on the website. More than half—52 per cent—of agents did not display an actual fee or indeed any way in which the fee could be calculated. More than half the agents stated a different fee when contacted by telephone to what was stated on their website. So, what needs to be done now? Well, I am sometimes slightly dismayed by the extent to which we seem to follow Scotland’s path here in the Assembly. On this occasion, though, if we do look north, then we find that there is a legislative course that we could perhaps follow. In November 2012, the Scottish Parliament voted to approve new legislation that outlawed all tenancy charges, apart from rent and a refundable deposit. This move then impacted on England. In July 2013, the Commons’ select committee on communities and local government compiled a report on the private rented sector. Following Scotland’s lead on letting agency fees was considered at that point, but the committee sensibly decided to wait for more evidence to emerge from Scotland as to what effect the Scottish legislative changes had had on the Scottish private rented sector. In March 2015, the same Commons committee published a report in which they gathered together the evidence from Scotland and had another look at the situation. A major worry was that if letting agents were no longer able to charge tenants for various check, then they might charge the landlords instead, and the landlords would simply pass the fees onto the tenants in the form of rent increases. However, the Commons investigation found no clear evidence that rents had risen as a result of the abolition of letting agency fees. The committee’s recommendation was that there should be a comprehensive impact assessment of the effects of introducing a similar ban in England. Since then, in the recent autumn statement, the Chancellor stated that Ministers will bring in a ban as soon as possible. Is a blanket ban on fees what we want, though? Will such a ban be enforceable? And, if such a ban does come in, will it simply push up rents? In terms of enforcement, we need to go back to the example of Scotland. There, it was actually illegal to charge premiums—that is, fees charged at the start of a tenancy—after the housing Act (Scotland), passed by the Westminster Parliament back in 1984. However, the 2012 law passed by the Holyrood Parliament clarified this and led to enforcement action finally being taken. This near 30-year gap does demonstrate the danger of passing poorly drafted and subsequently unenforceable legislation, of which of course we have to beware. What about the issue of charges being passed on to tenants as increased rents? Well, Generation Rent, the campaigning group, looked at Scotland before and after the ban and concluded that abolishing fees did not necessarily drive up rents. However, the evidential problem was that rents did go up in the period under review and Generation Rent was unable to separate the agency fees issue from other factors in the housing market. So to be frank, they simply didn’t know. The Commons select committee also concluded that the evidence was inconclusive, and that more research needed to be done on this while the National Landlords Association believed that, in Scotland,‘the letting fee still exists but has been transferred into the rent; tenants are now paying a higher rent.’PricedOut, another pressure group, opined that even if some of the fees were passed on in the form of higher rent, this would mean that the charges were spread across a tenancy, which was preferable to tenants being hit with a huge lump sum when they wanted to move to a new place. ARLA, the Association of Residential Letting Agents, has been critical of the proposed ban in England. They claim that the average charge is actually £202 per tenant and that this is broadly a fair fee to cover agents’ costs. The Residential Landlords Association says that it would have been better to improve the transparency of fees charged by agents by forcing them to publicise their charges and what the charges actually cover rather than have a blanket ban. The problem with this is that the consumer Act legislation already did this, covering England and Wales, and Shelter Cymru’s evidence seemed to conclusively reveal that it had had little effect on the commercial behaviour of many letting agents. So, if you want to deal with this problem, you have probably got two options. You could call for complete transparency. This would mean agents having to publish a full breakdown of fees alongside any property advert. It would also forbid double charging and would force letting agents to reveal all of the tenancy charges to the landlords they were working for. But this is already provided for in the consumer rights Act and, in actuality, probably doesn’t really function very well in the housing sector. The other option is to have a blanket ban and to make all fees and charges, other than rents and deposits, unlawful when charged to the prospective tenant. There could be a case for either option. But, as earlier legislation has failed, it seems to me that we may now need to address this as a legislative issue, targeted purely at the letting agents. Hence the debate that UKIP Wales has brought here today.

I have selected the four amendments to the motion. I call on Sian Gwenllian to move amendments 1, 3 and 4 tabled in the name of Rhun ap Iorwerth.

Amendment 1—Rhun ap IorwerthAdd as new point 3 and renumber accordingly:Regrets that in the previous Assembly, the Welsh Government failed to take the opportunity to ban excessive letting agents’ fees.

Amendment 3—Rhun ap IorwerthAdd as new sub-point at end of point 3:Further consider ways of tackling excessive and unfair service charges, or unjustified rises in service charges, that are levied on to leaseholders.

Amendment 4—Rhun ap IorwerthAdd as new point at end of motion:Believes that, if the Welsh Government has produced legal advice suggesting a Bill on banning excessive agents’ fees would be outside of the legislative competency of the Assembly, this advice should be published.

Amendments 1, 3 and 4 moved.

Siân Gwenllian AC: Thank you very much, Llywydd. I move the amendments. I also declare an interest as the mother of four young people who have paid a huge amount in letting fees over the years.Plaid Cymru is pleased to support this motion to abolish fees charged by letting agents. As you know, we introduced amendments to that end during the debate on the renting homes Bill. At that time, we were supported by the Liberal Democrats and the Conservatives during that debate. It’s clear from the motion before us today that UKIP too would have supported those very amendments, which means that the only party that hasn’t yet publicly committed to abolish letting agents’ fees is the Labour Party. But, the Government amendments do provide some hope, and I very much hope that, by the end of today, they too will be supporting abolishing these problematic fees. I look forward to seeing that happen this afternoon.Amendment 1, therefore, regrets that the previous Assembly didn’t take the opportunity to ban these fees at an earlier stage The aim of our second amendment is to add to the motion and to call for consideration to be given to how extreme and unfair service charges could be abolished, or increases in services charges paid by the leaseholder. Therefore, the second amendment expands this field. These service charges are often similar to extreme letting fees in the sense that the client is already tied in to a long-term agreement without the ability to shop around, and will often have to pay a high price for a service, which, quite often, simply isn’t provided. Large increases in fees can also create difficulties in selling a flat or another property, which can mean that an individual cannot move as they would perhaps wish.The final amendment relates to a story covered in the media a few weeks ago, where it was claimed that the Government had told its backbenchers that the reason they weren’t voting in favour of the Plaid Cymru amendment to ban letting agent fees was because there were legal questions surrounding competency. That’s not the case put forward publicly by the Government at the time, and one would need to ask the question as to why they didn’t make that case at that time. It was part of a more general pattern by the Government to oppose amendments and legislation and use technical arguments that many Members of the Assembly weren’t in the position to scrutinise or to question properly. We’re of the view, therefore, that if the Government wants to use legal arguments against any amendment or proposed Bill, rather than to make the case on a matter of principle, then that legal advice should be published beforehand. That would give adequate time for people who don’t necessarily agree with that view to actually bring together their case and to seek independent advice where necessary.To be clear, Plaid Cymru is of the view that banning these fees is something that this Chamber can and should legislate on. I do hope that the Government now realises that they have made a major mistake in this area in the past. It is interesting to see that UKIP is turning to Scotland as an example of good practice. It does demonstrate, of course, that devolved Governments can be far more enlightened than the central state.

I call on the Cabinet Secretary for Communities and Children to move formally amendment 2 tabled in the name of Jane Hutt.

Amendment 2—Jane HuttIn point 3, delete sub-points (a) and (b) and replace with:(a) Consider how legislation on this subject might work in light of the evidence on the impact of abolition in Scotland and the responses to the consultation in England.(b) Consult with other parties in the Assembly and stakeholders on the best way forward for Wales.

Amendment 2 moved.

Carl Sargeant AC: Formally.

Michelle Brown AC: I would endorse my friend Gareth Bennett’s comments on the difficulties created for tenants by letting fees and charges. The issue of tenancy and letting agent fees is not confined to fees for credit checks and referencing before or at the start of the tenancy, though. There are frequently schedules of pre-agreed fixed costs for breakages, repairs et cetera, and other charges imposed during the tenancy, which provide unscrupulous letting agents—and, for that matter, landlords—with the opportunity to exploit and overcharge tenants. Welsh Tenants, an organisation that acts as a voice for tenants in Wales, provides an example of a letting agent’s schedule of fees and charges on its website. It contains some, shall we say, interesting charges such as: change of utilities—£25; replacement of tenant—25 per cent of the monthly rent; and contract renewals, as mentioned by Gareth Bennett—£50. Quite what these charges actually cover in terms of work or services provided by the letting agent or how they’re justified by the agency itself is questionable. Perhaps the most illustrative of the fees in the example provided by Welsh Tenants is a £25 fee for the return of overpaid rent. So, if the tenant overpays rent, they are charged £25 for the privilege of having their money given back to them. It seems very odd to me. This example schedule probably represents one of the worst schedules of fees and charges imposed by letting agents, at least I hope so, and I’m sure there are many agents who aren’t as keen to levy charges as in that schedule. However, the fact that letting agencies can impose such charges and get away with it says a lot about the state of the private rented sector and the dire need to address additional costs to tenants that hamper or prevent their moving to more suitable accommodation. It has been argued, particularly by trade organisations representing letting agents and letting agents themselves, that rents will rise if these letting fees are banned. That doesn’t appear to be borne out by what is happening in Scotland. I would refer Members to Shelter’s report, ‘Ending Letting Fees’, in 2013, which concluded that landlords in Scotland, after the ban was enforced there, were no more likely to increase rents than those elsewhere in the UK.Even if banning these fees leads to an increase in rents, I would suggest that, firstly, at least the tenant will end up paying the fees in a more manageable way. The fees will be divided over months as opposed to having to pay hundreds of pounds upfront in addition to the bond and the rent. Secondly, landlords are in a better position to negotiate sensible fees and charges with letting agents than their tenants are, which will keep down increases in rents in the first place. An indication of how lucrative these fees and charges are for letting agents can be found in the way the share prices of the letting agent Foxtons crashed in the hours following the announcement of a ban on fees in England. It suggests that, quite apart from being legitimate costs that are merely being passed on to tenants, these fees and charges are a source of profit for letting agents. Looking at some of the fees and charges in the schedule of fees and charges I referred to earlier, there is a good percentage of profit to be creamed off those fixed costs for an unscrupulous letting agent. For instance, a fixed charge of £400 for a washing machine that may only cost the landlord or letting agent £250 to replace would see a fair bit of profit.Rent Smart is likely to place more private rental properties in the hands of letting agents, so the proportion of tenants in Wales affected by these fees and charges is not going to reduce any time soon. Close scrutiny of the operation of letting agents in Wales will therefore be necessary. I have no objection to commercial enterprises making as much profit as they like out of people who have sufficient bargaining power to protect themselves from being overcharged and exploited. However, that isn’t the position that the majority of tenants find themselves in. Most tenants have only two options: pay the charges and stand a chance of getting the home they want, or refuse to pay and stay where they are—if they have already a place to live, that is. The only assistance for tenants in Wales is to be found in this Chamber, and I would urge Members to support the motion. Thank you.

Jenny Rathbone AC: The people who suffer most from these letting agency charges are those who would, in the past, have been housed in council or housing association properties. It’s the shortage of social housing as a result of the right-to-buy legislation and the failure to replace those homes with new homes that has driven people eligible for employment support allowance into the private rented sector. There are many vulnerable people in poor health, living on benefits, being forced to move every year, even if they are model tenants. The letting agency fee has to be paid out of their employment and support allowance—the money that’s supposed to be used for food, heating and other essential items like clothing. So, there can be no justification for continuing with this fee, which, in any case, the letting agencies are charging both the tenants and the landlords for the same piece of work. What’s more, they are outrageously overcharging the tenants for things that don’t actually cost that much. So, it’s merely because there is such a sellers’ market that they are able to do this. So, the solution has to be to abolish letting agency fees and ensure that any fees that need to be charged are imposed on the landlord. Just as it happens with estate agents who are buying and selling properties, it is the seller who pays the fee. So, I hope that we will be able to resolve this matter. Obviously, I’m hoping that good luck will shine on me when the ballot for individual Members’ Bills comes up in January, and that I might be chosen so that I can introduce such a Bill. But I hope that whoever is lucky on that day will also consider this very important matter.

David Melding AC: Can I welcome this UKIP debate and also commend the opening speech by Gareth Bennett, which analysed very effectively and thoroughly the current situation and, I thought, made a very persuasive case? So, we do give a general welcome to this policy shift. I think it’s very important to reflect the change in society. We now have generation rent. It will take us a long time to build the quantity of houses we need to really have an effect on supply and therefore reduce the average cost of housing, which would definitely be in the public interest, however that is achieved—through private or social, or a combination of both types of housebuilding. So, I very much welcome the fact the Chancellor identified this subject as worthy of attention and has suggested a ban on letting agency fees.I’m not sure it’s been mentioned so far, but in the last 10 or 15 years, there has been a general increase in the charges that have been made by letting agents. There’s also very little consistency in their approach, and a couple of Members have mentioned this. They seem sometimes to be just a random attempt to get an extra charge, at a time when a potential tenant has little power, really, to object. In any case, for the operation of the market, it would better if these costs were met by the landlord—or landlady, indeed—who can seek the most efficient type of service and is in a position to bargain effectively. We’ve heard that there is already experience of how the reform might operate in Scotland, where they have banned the fees. And whilst there’s been a general increase in rentals in the last—well, even since the financial crash, rents have gone up, but I don’t think there is evidence that Scottish rents have gone up more than the UK average. So, that would suggest to me that banning the letting agency fees has not been borne directly by tenants. It seems to have been largely absorbed. Can I just say that we will abstain on the actual motion just to trigger the amendments? We’ll support all of the amendments apart from the final amendment, because I’m not quite sure where we are in terms of the privilege that Governments have for legal advice, and they do need legal advice sometimes. That would be the case for the UK Government as well as the Government here, so we will probably abstain on amendment 4, but then we will support the motion, however it is amended. We do this because I think the Welsh Government is right to seek to consult with the various stakeholders about the way forward. But I think the general presumption now has to be that these fees should be abolished. Thank you.

I call on the Cabinet Secretary for Communities and Children, Carl Sargeant.

Carl Sargeant AC: Thank you, Presiding Officer. I thank comrades for their contributions. Jenny Rathbone has been a champion of this proposal for many months, and she continues to be so. I’m very grateful for the opportunity to have some conversations with her regarding this very issue. The Welsh Government has consistently demonstrated its commitment to a fair deal for private sector tenants, most recently introducing the Renting Homes (Wales) Act 2016 and the introduction, indeed, of Rent Smart Wales. Llywydd, we are cracking down on rogue agents and landlords and are working to raise standards in the sector. This debate is not about who cares about the interests of tenants more. It’s about one particular proposal, the effectiveness of which has yet to be proved. The First Minister has already given his assurance that we are actively considering a ban on letting fees to tenants and this issue, and I’m happy to confirm that today.Just before I continue, it is worth noting Sian Gwenllian’s contribution today, which perhaps needed some more meat on the bone around the detail there. I’m very keen to acknowledge that Members across all parties are in this space of considering this proposal, but the Member would be wrong to think that the Conservatives in any way supported the renting homes Bill. In fact, they actively sought to derail it. They’ve suddenly seen the light about letting agent fees; actually, they voted against the legislation that we introduced here in this Chamber. The other point of fact that the Member may wish to consider is that I think she suggested that we had shared legal advice with Labour backbenchers. That wasn’t ever said, and is not true either. If the Member didn’t suggest that, I apologise, but from her wording, that is what I took from her contribution. But if that’s the case, then I acknowledge that, too. In terms of the proposals I believe we all share about some of the practices of letting agents, Rent Smart Wales will improve the way they’re run, their businesses, with sanctions if they fail to do so. Legislation brought in via the Consumer Protection Act 1987 means agents have to publish their fees upfront, but I am also conscious of the Shelter survey that went on, and we have to look at this more carefully in terms of what the legislation says.The motion refers, quite rightly, to concerns about the impact that agent fees can have on tenants and proposes further legislation. I understand the thinking behind the motion, but there are two fundamental flaws that you must think through before we legislate. Firstly, it appears to suggest we consider the impact and then move directly and very rapidly to that legislation without further consideration. What is needed right now is a very detailed and careful consideration of experience elsewhere—Scotland, for example—and the policy objectives of the legislation solution that has been put forward. Similarly, we need to look very closely at what is being proposed for England and the evidence base that underpins that also.Secondly, the motion suggests that costs must not be passed on to tenants via rent increases. There is a separate discussion to be had about the desirability of comprehensive rent controls, but this goes way beyond the question of banning agents’ fees to tenants. So, again, it’s a complex point that you raise within the same debate, which I think, actually, may have been better discussed on a separate occasion. But it is something that we are considering as a whole, as the motion suggests. The proposal to prevent agents from increasing their fees to landlords would require a system of Government-determined limits on agents’ fees, and the letting agents are businesses. Together they employ thousands of people in communities throughout Wales, but we must make sure, with legislation, that we control that properly.For these reasons, I can’t support the motion today. The flaws in the UKIP proposals demonstrate the need for full consideration of the evidence and consultation before we move to legislation. Similarly, I’m unable to support the first of Plaid Cymru’s amendments, which suggests we should have acted without evidence or full consideration. I would be surprised if the Member, and the party, really considered that to be their position. We are always prepared to reflect on what’s in place and take further action where the evidence shows that there is more that can be done. Evidence is now emerging from Scotland, and this is the time to determine what we should do here, in Wales. Our approach is set out in this Government amendment. We need to look very carefully at the evidence presented. Scotland first introduced legislation banning agents’ fees in 1984. They reinforced that in 2012, and whilst the evidence from the Shelter research suggests there has been little impact on rental levels, other anecdotal evidence suggests that rents have gone up, and there are even greater stories of agents who are still charging tenants. We must look through that to see if there’s a solution for us here in Wales. But I’m happy to move our amendment today.

I call on Neil Hamilton to reply to the debate.

Neil Hamilton AC: Diolch yn fawr iawn, Lywydd. Well, this has been one of those agreeable occasions where everybody is broadly in agreement, although I have known many such occasions in the past where everybody has been wrong. But I don’t think that this is likely to be one of them. I’m grateful for the support that has been offered by the Conservative Party and by Plaid Cymru. I can say that we, for our part, accept Plaid Cymru’s amendments to our motion.It was interesting to hear Sian Gwenllian’s point about how, sometimes, devolved parliaments perhaps can be more enlightened than the parliaments from which they emerged. The opposite can also be true, but I’m in favour of competition, generally speaking, and therefore if we can gain from the experience of other devolved parliaments, it’s a very good thing. So, it’s one of the advantages of devolution, which I’m happy to accept.Both Jenny Rathbone and my colleague Michelle Brown made reference to the fact that it’s a sellers’ market. This is where the bulk of the problem arises from, of course, because the letting agents and the landlords effectively have the whip hand and the tenant does have an inequality of bargaining power, which enables the letting agents to get away with these fees. I hope that Jenny Rathbone is fortunate in the private Member’s Bill ballot as well. As I know she has been a staunch advocate of these proposed changes for many years, it would certainly be welcome if she had the opportunity to introduce such a measure.In the course of the debate, some of the more unscrupulous charges have been set out in some detail, and it’s quite clear that they are wholly indefensible. Michelle Brown made a very valuable contribution, I think, to the debate in that respect. So, there does seem to be a widespread agreement on the general principle. I can understand the attitude of the Government wanting to look at the experience of such legislation elsewhere, obviously, and the proposals as they are going to be brought in in England. There is a legal obligation to consult, clearly, before such measures are introduced, but we want to emphasise our belief that this is an urgent matter that needs to be dealt with. So, if we vote against the Labour amendment today, it doesn’t mean that we think that the Government is unreasonable in proposing what it does, but merely because we want to underline the necessity of getting on with the job as quickly as possible. I hope that we will be able to solve this festering sore, which does affect the most vulnerable in society. We should be careful, of course, of causing the housing market to seize up, and therefore shouldn’t, I think, go down the general route of rent control, but I do believe that unscrupulous fees of this kind ought to be made illegal as soon as possible.

The proposal is to agree the motion without amendment. Does any Member object? [Objection.] I will defer voting under this item until voting time.

Voting deferred until voting time.

9. Urgent Question: Tata Steel

[R] signifies the Member has declared an interest. [W] signifies that the question was tabled in Welsh.

I have accepted an urgent question under Standing Order 12.66. I call on Adam Price to ask the urgent question.

Adam Price AC: Will the Welsh Government make a statement on the outcome of recent talks between Tata Steel and unions over the future of its Welsh and British operations? EAQ(5)0097(EI)

Ken Skates AC: Yes, I’d like to thank the Member for his question. I’d also like to thank the Presiding Officer for deferring this urgent question until this moment. This is a huge moment for steel in Wales and Britain. I welcome, as a very significant step, the announcement earlier this afternoon that steel unions have secured from Tata Steel a commitment to secure employment and production at Port Talbot and its other steel sites across the UK.

Adam Price AC: There can be no doubt at all that after an intensely difficult year, some degree of certainty, at least in the near term for steelworkers and their families, is very good news indeed, particularly at this time of year. ‘Crisis averted’ for the Welsh steel industry will be welcomed on all sides of the Assembly, but ‘crisis merely delayed’ would be a very different proposition and that’s why I’m sure many of us will want to study the detail of the outcome of the discussions between Tata Steel and the unions. In this regard, can the Cabinet Secretary tell us more based on what he knows about the proposal? There is a 10-year investment plan promised, we understand, for Port Talbot and for the downstream sites, but only a five-year commitment for the retention of the two blast furnaces and through the employment compact. Is it true that the £1 billion investment plan is effectively self-funded by operations at Port Talbot, and if those targets for earnings are not met the investment would stop, which leaves us with the possibility that we could be back here having the same conversations in 2021? Surely, a 10-year investment plan deserves a 10-year commitment. Could he say what the status now is of the merger discussions with ThyssenKrupp? The principal advantage of the pension fund closure is its attractiveness to potential merger partners or to buyers. On a broader level, could the Cabinet Secretary say whether he thinks it’s really intolerable for workers in any company to be put in this position, where they have to choose between their pensions and their jobs? Are we setting a dangerous precedent that other solvent companies would seek to exploit? Does he know if the proposal that steelworkers should work to 65 instead of retiring at 60 is back on the table? And, has Tata indicated to him what would happen if steelworkers rejected the pension proposals as they did almost unanimously last year? Finally, what confidence can we have in the board of Tata Steel, which, with the exception of the interim chair, is the very same board that only a few months ago enthusiastically embraced Cyrus Mistry’s plan for divestment and rejected the turnaround plan that it is happily now embracing today?

Ken Skates AC: Yes, I’d like to thank the Member for his questions. I agree that this has been a very long and taxing year for all Tata employees, for their families and for the wider communities, and I’m pleased that the uncertainty is now over and that they can look forward to Christmas and face the new year with confidence and security. I’m going to be making further announcements in due course regarding the support that Welsh Government is able to offer Tata. Members may be aware as well that a statement has been issued confirming our support of £4 million towards the financial costs of implementing skills training interventions. It’s going to be matched by the investment being made available by the company and it most certainly demonstrates our firm belief in the future of steel production in Wales, and the competitive benefits brought by a competent, efficient and highly skilled workforce.I give full recognition that details are still emerging for Members to digest, but I can assure Members that Welsh Government, Tata and trade unions have worked together relentlessly over the past eight or so months, and today we have taken the biggest step forward in decades in securing the long-term sustainability of steelmaking in Wales. I’ll be able to provide some detail of what is contained within the agreement. The deal that was secured includes a commitment from Tata Steel to secure jobs and production at Port Talbot and other steelworks—the other steelworks across Wales. This is an announcement that applies to all of the steelworks across the country.Unions announced that significant elements of this commitment are a guaranteed five-year minimum commitment to twin blast furnace steelmaking and a commitment to invest in blast furnace 5 as part of a wider capital expenditure investment plan. It includes a jobs pact of equivalence to that agreed with Tata Steel in the Netherlands, which includes a commitment to seek to avoid any compulsory redundancies for five years. It includes a £1 billion, 10-year investment plan to support steel making at Port Talbot and secure the future of the downstream operations. The commencement of a consultation by Tata Steel on the closure of the British Steel pension scheme and the replacement of it with a defined contribution scheme, with maximum contributions of 10 per cent from the company and 6 per cent from employees, will begin in due course and there will be a ballot of members in the new year. As far as I am aware, merger talks are continuing as they were with ThyssenKrupp, but the most important factor in today’s announcement is that it enables Port Talbot and steelworks across Wales to become even more competitive, to undergo transformation that continues to see them producing metal for many years to come. The best way to secure the long-term future of steel making in Wales is to make steel making amongst the most competitive anywhere on the planet, and that’s what today’s announcement and future announcements are going to be about.

David Rees AC: Can I join you in welcoming this news today? Because, having spoken to the unions this afternoon, it’s clear that there are still some serious concerns amongst the unions regarding some of these proposals, particularly in relation to the pension scheme and the longer term aspects, but do you also agree with me now that this has to be supported by Welsh Government and UK Government investment? You’ve already indicated, I think—you just said, I heard—that you’re going to make some announcements, perhaps, towards that end. Will you also talk to Cabinet colleagues in Westminster to ensure they now honour some of their commitments of support for the steel industry? Tata’s announcement itself asked for support for the steel industry on some of the aspects. We need that for longer term investment. When you, hopefully, will meet with Ratan Tata—I did call for you to do that earlier—I think it’s also important for you to get him to actually give an undertaking personally to the steel industry here in the UK, because Adam Price is quite right in what he said: there’s a lack of confidence in Tata’s commitments because of the last 12 months, and that has strained the relationship between the employees and the company. It is now important that that confidence is returned and, perhaps, personal commitments from Ratan Tata might help that process. I think it’s important we get that so that the commitments that have been made for five years, we have confidence they will be delivered, and that the 10-year, £1 billion investment is therefore likely to ensure that those commitments to the works will go ahead in the longer term.Can you also tell me what discussions you might be having now with ThyssenKrupp to look at the merger proposals? We know from the previous reports about their consolidation considerations. This is a plan for five years; what’s their position in relation to the next five years? Will there also be an honouring of the Dutch commitments if a merger takes place? I think we need that.I welcome the skills, because efficiency and productivity are the way forward, but we also need to look at how we get the markets and the procurement undertaken so we can get the competitiveness in delivering and actually selling the steel. So, will you also look at ways in which the Welsh Government can look at procurement to again ensure that the steel that is produced in Wales can be used in Wales whenever possible, and if not in Wales, discuss with your colleagues in Westminster that it’s used in England, Scotland and Ireland, so that we can get the best for our steel industry?Cabinet Secretary, this announcement has lifted, to an extent—I use the words ‘to an extent’—the darkness away from many steelworkers and their families. They’ve been living through hell for the last 12 months, there’s no doubt about that. The communities around them have tried to support them, but there has been uncertainty, and that support, therefore, has been limited because of that uncertainty. What they want now and what we want now is certainty. I hope that this actual statement starts that process of certainty.

Ken Skates AC: I’d like to thank the Member for his questions and say that it most certainly does just that, and I’m surely not the only Member in this Chamber to have family employed within the Tata steelworks estate. Today marks a very significant moment in terms of giving security to many people who have lived the past year in a constant state of anxiety about their future employment.In terms of our engagement with UK Government, the Member is absolutely right. We will continue to press UK Government Ministers to support steel in the UK, and I will be meeting tomorrow with the UK Government Minister Nick Hurd, who is Minister of State for Climate Change and Industry to discuss Tata Steel and the support that we now expect of the UK Government. We certainly expect the UK Government to take action in terms of energy costs and on research and development to ensure that the steel industry is sustainable for the long-term future. I will also be leaving the Chamber to go to speak by video-conference with Bimlendra Jha, and I will be raising the issues that you pointed out concerning the crucial role that Ratan Tata could play in easing tensions and reinstating trust within the workforce for Tata.In terms of our engagement with ThyssenKrupp, I would now be very pleased to engage with them. It’s our expectation that the conditions that we have laid out for our support and the support that I hope to be announcing in the coming days would have to stand any merger, and would have to be conditional on any ongoing support. In terms of procurement, David Rees is aware of the work stream, and is part of the steel taskforce that has been looking into this area to ensure that we can exploit every and any opportunity in terms of public procurement projects and infrastructure projects. I do believe that, with the package of support that we are offering, with the potential support that UK Government could and, in my view, should bring forward, steel making in Wales and the UK has a very bright future from today onwards.

John Griffiths AC: I very much welcome Tata’s statement today, and indeed your response, Cabinet Secretary, here in the Chamber. I think Tata’s statement is testament to the very strong ‘Save Our Steel’ campaign of the steelworkers and the trade unions representing them, and indeed the role played by our Welsh Labour Government here and yourself as Cabinet Secretary, and of course many Assembly Members as well, particularly my colleague David Rees as the AM for Aberavon. So, it’s very pleasing that we’ve reached this stage today, Cabinet Secretary, but obviously, as we’ve already discussed, there is further work to be done to ensure that we do have the certainty that David Rees spoke about and the stability moving forward. For me, of course, I’m crucially concerned with Tata at Llanwern and indeed the Orb steelworks, with their very high-quality electrical steels. Tata at Llanwern with the Zodiac plant is a very high-quality downstream operation, producing steel for the car industry and their general production at Llanwern. So, I wonder if you could assure me and the workers in those Newport plants, Cabinet Secretary, that when discussing the use of that £1 billion investment for all the steel operations of Tata, you will not neglect sites such as those at Llanwern and the Orb steelworks, and make sure that that £1 billion investment supports those very high-quality operations and ensures a sustainable future for those Newport plants.

Ken Skates AC: I would like to thank John Griffiths for his questions and say that, whilst I am very grateful for his kind words, I do believe that it is the First Minister who has led on this issue, and has been able to ensure that we are at the point where we are today. I’d also say that Assembly Members have expressed concern over the future of the steel industry from across the Chamber, and I think Assembly Members right across the political spectrum will be relieved and will welcome today’s announcement.The ‘Save Our Steel’ campaign has been a huge success, and I think those who have led it, and most of all those who have participated in it, have ensured the long-term future of steel working for future generations, potentially, their children, and many people who could be employed in the sector in the years to come. This announcement does of course cover Llanwern and all the other steel sites, because without Port Talbot, each of those steel sites in Wales would be left fatally exposed. I should have added just previously that the package of support that I’ve announced today of more than £4 million is of course relevant and open to steelworkers at all of the Welsh sites.

Suzy Davies AC: Can I thank the Cabinet Secretary for responding to the statement today as well? Could I also express my congratulations to, certainly, the trade unions for bringing this to a conclusion just before Christmas, anyway, and giving at least some comfort? But I do share the concerns of both Adam Price and David Rees on what faith we should place in the commitments that Tata Steel have given today. It was only this time last week that we were standing here and asking you questions about what you thought about the commitments that Tata Steel were able to give and, at the time, you mentioned that you weren’t prepared to, understandably, respond to press speculation, and I respect that, but can you give us an indication of how much you—or, at least, it may have been the First Minister—were kept in the loop over what’s been happening over this last week? I appreciate some of that information might have been given in confidence and shouldn’t necessarily be shared, but I think we would all like some reassurance that nobody in Government has been frozen out from being fully involved in the conversation that’s been taking place over the last week, if not longer than that. Secondly, to go back to the point that Adam Price raised—because obviously, there is a discrepancy between five years and 10 years here. While I understand the Welsh Government’s willingness to only commit to a certain period of time on this, you may remember questions I’ve raised before about what the Welsh Government is able to do in terms of securing the public purse against potential breaches of conditions, not by Tata necessarily but by future purchasers or, in this case, mergers. We’ve all expressed our concerns about ThyssenKrupp here in the past.Now, I note in your statement today, which I’ve seen fairly recently, that the wider package—this £4 million that you’re making available—will be subject to agreeing the detail of legally binding conditions. I’d be grateful, first of all, if you could confirm who will be legally bound by those conditions, because there’s always the potential that this arrangement—in the next 10 years, Port Talbot, in particular, could be subject to yet another sales option. Secondly, to what extent will you be able to make the details of those conditions available to us as Assembly Members? I recognise that commercial confidentiality will have a role here, but bearing in mind particularly what David Rees mentioned on the issue of trust earlier on, I wouldn’t like to think that that was used as an excuse for not sharing with us those that, legally, you can. Thank you.

Ken Skates AC: Can I thank Suzy Davies for her questions? We have been working on this, as you’re aware, for many months and there has been no freezing out. In fact, the relationship that Welsh Government has had with Tata has been very productive. I would have dearly loved to be able to provide a running commentary on where we were with Tata, but unfortunately, given the sensitivity of this issue and the commercial confidence that must be maintained, I simply was not able to do that. Responding to negative press speculation with any detail would also, potentially, have undermined talks that were ongoing and potentially not led us to the point where we’re at today. In terms of the support that we are willing to offer—not just the £4 million for skills and training but also additional support that I intend to announce in the coming days—there would be conditionality attached to that support if Tata were to be purchased or taken over by any other future venture. We would expect the conditions to be honoured, or we would expect that resource to be clawed back. I am not in a position at this moment in time to be able to say to what degree we are going to be able to share with you details of the support, simply because it is commercial in confidence right now.

Finally, Lee Waters.

Lee Waters AC: Diolch, Lywydd. Thank you, Minister. I must say, I’ll express my relief at the fact a deal has been reached and my thanks to you and the First Minister and the officials for your role in playing this. It’s clearly a matter of concern that we are subject to the whims of a boardroom in India and I’m sure there are many in the Chamber who are discomforted by how dependent we are on the decisions that we have so little control over. Can he reassure us that, in the economic strategy that he is putting together with colleagues, great effort will be put in place to make sure that we are more resilient to these external shocks in future, and we put in place for our communities other options so that we’re not held to ransom like this from multinationals who exercise decisions sometimes on a whimsy?

Ken Skates AC: Local management is, of course, crucial and accountability to the community is essential. I think one of the lessons that we can take from the past year is that communities will stand up united when they face the prospect of a significant number of jobs being lost. That, in turn, I think justifies the position that we’ve taken through the programme for government and the Welsh Labour manifesto, which is to look at growing those companies that are indigenous to Wales and have global potential at an accelerated pace, to essentially enable those local companies to grow from good to great and to become world-class companies that employ significant numbers. Earlier today, you asked a question about the fourth industrial revolution and I think it’s fair to say that the emerging economic strategy must pay due regard to that and the issues that you’ve just raised now.

Thank you, Cabinet Secretary. This has certainly been a far more positive item than the day that the previous Assembly was recalled on 4 April only this year. It’s been a very long eight months following the initial Tata announcement.Felly, diolch yn fawr i’r Ysgrifennydd Cabinet. Rydym nawr yn symud ymlaen i’r cyfnod pleidleisio. Oni bai bod tri Aelod yn dymuno i mi ganu’r gloch, rwy’n symud yn syth i’r cyfnod pleidleisio.

10. 7. Voting Time

The first vote is on the individual Member debate on public health. I call for a vote on the motion in the name of Jenny Rathbone, Rhun ap Iorwerth, Vikki Howells, Angela Burns and Dai Lloyd. Open the vote. Close the vote. In favour, 48; no abstentions; none against. So, the motion is agreed.

Motion agreed: For 48, Against 0, Abstain 0.

Result of the vote on motion NDM6144.Click to see vote results

The second vote is on the Welsh Conservatives’ debate on the autumn statement. I call for a vote on the motion in the name of Paul Davies. Open the vote. Close the vote. In favour, 17, no abstentions, 31 against. So, the motion is not agreed.

Motion not agreed: For 17, Against 31, Abstain 0.

Result of the vote on motion NDM6182.Click to see vote results

I call for a vote on the amendment 1, tabled in the name of Jane Hutt. Open the vote. Close the vote. In favour 31, no abstentions, 17 against. So, the amendment is agreed.

Amendment agreed: For 31, Against 17, Abstain 0.

Result of the vote on amendment 1 to motion NDM6182.Click to see vote results

I now call for a vote on amendment 2, tabled in the name of Rhun ap Iorwerth. Open the vote. Close the vote. In favour 37, no abstentions, 11 against. So, amendment 2 is agreed.

Amendment agreed: For 37, Against 11, Abstain 0.

Result of the vote on amendment 2 to motion NDM6182.Click to see vote results

I now call for a vote on amendment 3, tabled in the name of Rhun ap Iorwerth. Open the vote. Close the vote. In favour 37, no abstentions, 11 against. So, amendment 3 is agreed.

Amendment agreed: For 37, Against 11, Abstain 0.

Result of the vote on amendment 3 to motion NDM6182.Click to see vote results

I now call for a vote on amendment 4, tabled in the name of Rhun ap Iorwerth. Open the vote. Close the vote. In favour 12, no abstentions, 36 against. So, amendment 3 is not agreed.

Amendment not agreed: For 12, Against 36, Abstain 0.

Result of the vote on amendment 4 to motion NDM6182.Click to see vote results

I call for a vote on amendment 5, tabled in the name of Rhun ap Iorwerth. Open the vote. Close the vote. In favour 48, no abstentions, none against. So, amendment 5 is agreed.

Amendment agreed: For 48, Against 0, Abstain 0.

Result of the vote on amendment 5 to motion NDM6182.Click to see vote results

I now call for a vote on the motion as amended.

Motion NDM6182 as amended:To propose that the National Assembly for Wales:1. Notes the UK Government’s Autumn Statement.2. Notes the Autumn Statement includes additional capital allocations for the Welsh budget of £442m between 2016-17 and 2020-21.3. Regrets the UK Government did not use the Autumn Statement to end its damaging policy of austerity.4. Regrets the UK Government did not recognise the need for investment in the health service, social care and other essential public services in the Autumn Statement.5. Notes that the UK Government will raise the National Living Wage to £7.50 to support jobs and earnings across the UK.6. Further notes that the Personal Allowance and Higher Rate threshold will increase to £12,000 and £50,000 respectively by 2020-21, which will reduce the income tax bill for 1.4 million individuals in Wales in 2017-18.7. Regrets that the UK Government failed to commit to a timescale for the delivery of electrification of the Great Western railway between Cardiff and Swansea, and the electrification of the North Wales Main Line.8. Regrets that the UK Government failed to commit to delivering the Swansea Bay tidal lagoon.9. Regrets the failure of the UK Government to devolve air passenger duty.

Open the vote. Close the vote. In favour 31, no abstentions, 17 against. The motion as amended is agreed.

Motion as amended agreed: For 31, Against 17, Abstain 0.

Result of the vote on motion NDM6182 as amended. Click to see vote results

We now move to a vote on the UKIP debate on letting agency fees. I call for a vote on the motion tabled in the name of Neil Hamilton and Gareth Bennett. Open the vote. Close the vote. In favour 6, 11 abstentions, 31 against. Therefore, the motion is not agreed.

Motion not agreed: For 6, Against 31, Abstain 11.

Result of the vote on motion NDM6181.Click to see vote results

I call for a vote on amendment 1, tabled in the name of Rhun ap Iorwerth. Open the vote. Close the vote. In favour 23, no abstentions, 25 against, and, therefore, amendment 1 is not agreed.

Amendment not agreed: For 23, Against 25, Abstain 0.

Result of the vote on amendment 1 to NDM6181.Click to see vote results

I now call for a vote on amendment 2, tabled in the name of Jane Hutt. Open the vote. Close the vote. In favour 36, 6 abstentions and 6 against. Therefore, amendment 2 is agreed.

Amendment agreed: For 36, Against 6, Abstain 6.

Result of the vote amendment 2 to NDM6181.Click to see vote results

I now call for a vote on amendment 3, tabled in the name of Rhun ap Iorwerth. Open the vote. Close the vote. In favour 48, no abstentions and no-one against. Therefore, amendment 3 is agreed.

Amendment agreed: For 48, Against 0, Abstain 0.

Result of the vote amendment 3 to NDM6181.Click to see vote results

I now call for a vote on amendment 4, tabled in the name of Rhun ap Iorwerth. Open the vote. Close the vote. In favour 12, 11 abstentions, 25 against. Therefore, amendment 4 is not agreed.

Amendment not agreed: For 12, Against 25, Abstain 11.

Result of the vote amendment 4 to NDM6181.Click to see vote results

Motion NDM6181 as amended:To propose that the National Assembly for Wales:1. Notes proposals from the UK Government to abolish fees charged by letting agents to tenants in England.2. Regrets that, on average, tenants are charged £233 in letting fees.3. Calls on the Welsh Government to:(a) consider how legislation on this subject might work in light of the evidence on the impact of abolition in Scotland and the responses to the consultation in England.(b) consult with other parties in the Assembly and stakeholders on the best way forward for Wales.(c) further consider ways of tackling excessive and unfair service charges, or unjustified rises in service charges, that are levied on to leaseholders.

I now call for a vote on the motion as amended. Open the vote. Close the vote. In favour 48, no abstentions, none against, Therefore, the motion as amended is agreed.

Motion as amended agreed: For 48, Against 0, Abstain 0.

Result of the vote on motion NDM6181 as amended.Click to see vote results

I ask those who are leaving the Chamber to do so quietly—the day’s business has not been concluded.

11. 8. Short Debate: Newport—A City on the Rise

We now move to the final item on our agenda this afternoon, which is the short debate. I call on John Griffiths to speak on the topic he has chosen. John Griffiths.

John Griffiths AC: Diolch yn fawr, Lywydd. I intend to give Jane Bryant two minutes, Llywydd, and Mohammad Asghar a minute to speak in this debate, following their requests. I’m very pleased to have the opportunity of this short debate, which I hope to use to highlight the ways that well-thought-through regeneration plans can help reinvigorate a city like Newport and give the city, and indeed its wider region, the thriving future we need. Newport, of course, was a docks town and a centre of industry, particularly for steel, for many years. Steel, of course, is still very important as an industry in Newport, and the challenge ahead is to maintain and grow our existing strengths such as steel, while also developing new jobs and growth that will make the city thrive again in the twenty-first century, as it has in the past.

The Deputy Presiding Officer took the Chair.

John Griffiths AC: Many communities in Wales and beyond have had similar experiences to those of Newport over the last few decades. The changing nature of work and the decline of heavy industry has seen a fall in traditional jobs, and these changes have questioned how we will prosper again. So, I welcome the opportunity to use this debate to highlight how this challenge is being met in Newport and how a brighter future is being forged. One of the key themes behind the reinvigoration of Newport is partnership. Partnership is absolutely central. Collaboration between Welsh Government, local government, the private sector, the third sector, universities and many others is driving this regeneration forward. And there is also recognition of the importance of the partnership between the citizens of Newport and their council. It’s a different kind of partnership to the one that drives major developments, but it is absolutely crucial to the city’s success. Dirprwy Lywydd, I will talk about both types of partnership today. One of the first things I must mention is a flagship development I’ve raised in this Chamber and outside many times before. Newport’s Friars Walk retail and leisure scheme is the cornerstone of Newport’s regeneration and has been key to attracting further inward investment into the city. It’s been central to Newport council’s plans to encourage a greater vitality of business and, indeed, use of new residential space in the city. With the council working closely with the developers, this £100 million scheme has brought jobs, retail and leisure back into the very heart of the city. But the plans went much wider than Friars Walk. The council made an ambitious and strong bid for funding from the Welsh Government’s Vibrant and Viable Places framework. This bid was successful, and £15 million in grants and a £1.2 million loan were awarded for various regeneration plans. Across a range of projects, this has seen 35 properties invested in through grants or loans, it has seen skills, jobs and training delivered, and it has had a significant effect. In fact, Newport delivered the first major housing scheme to be completed under Vibrant and Viable Places, with a major project on its Cardiff Road. A mix of properties have been delivered in partnership with housing associations, both those for sale at market rate and affordable homes for those in need, together with properties for rent.The economic impact has been watched carefully. Between Friars Walk and the schemes funded by Vibrant and Viable Places, the council calculates that over 1,200 jobs have been created, and, out of 600 people in need of employment support in the central area of the city, 340 have been helped into work through work-based skills training, funded with Vibrant and Viable Places money. There have been construction traineeships created, and 37 local construction suppliers have successfully secured contracts, helping to keep local jobs local and boost the Welsh economy. Small businesses are being helped through a business development fund. Over £96 million additional private investment has been attracted by the schemes, which is an important mark of success, I believe. Public money has unlocked this extra investment and it’s brought additional growth. And, of course, small businesses, as we all know, I believe, are the very lifeblood of our local and national economies. Dirprwy Lywydd, the success of these schemes should be celebrated, but it is only part of the picture of the positive developments happening across Newport. For example, the Glan Llyn housing and business development in my constituency—in fact, on part of the old Llanwern steel-making site—will provide 4,000 homes and 6,000 jobs over the next 20 years. We have a very important project, which will see Coleg Gwent and the University of South Wales working together in partnership with the council and private sector to develop a major knowledge quarter in the city centre, at the riverside. This will be anchored around the existing university city centre campus and would involve the relocation of Coleg Gwent’s Newport campus from Nash in the city to that riverfront site. It would put further education and higher education in the faces of local people with its central location and, I believe, greatly strengthen progression routes from FE into higher education. And also, of course, we have the construction of a major convention centre due to start next year, the result of partnership between Welsh Government and the Celtic Manor. This will be Wales’s premier convention centre, and it’s estimated this will bring an economic benefit of £70 million a year into the region. And already we are seeing further growth in hotels locally, and there will be an undoubted benefit for a host of local small businesses. The date for work to start on this was announced at last week’s Newport city summit. This was the fourth such summit that Newport has held. It’s an event that brings together key partners from the public, private and third sector to share ideas and information on the major projects and developments that are happening in the city and the wider region. This year, it was very successful once again, with a strong sense of progress and further opportunity. In fact, the optimism in Newport is very heartening. It shows that, with the right leadership, investment and partnership working, the challenges that we face over the years ahead to provide good jobs, liveable space and a thriving economy can be met.And, Dirprwy Lywydd, our local paper, the ‘South Wales Argus’ has been, and is, a champion of Newport. They are running a campaign called ‘We’re backing Newport’ to highlight and promote the city. This is about talking up the real achievements we have and showing what a good place Newport is to live, work and do business. Dirprwy Lywydd, as well as celebrating the big projects, we must also recognise our independent and small businesses. They are the very heart and backbone of our distinctive local economy and as much a part of our future as the big, major schemes, and they are crucial to our economic success. Again, they are very much recognised in the ongoing campaigns of the ‘South Wales Argus’ and by the city council and key partners.Of course, the purpose of regeneration is to help people and to make our city a great place to live. The citizens of Newport must be central to it. The council has recognised this too, with a different sort of partnership—one that promotes Newport as a city of democracy. It’s very fitting that Newport should be promoted in that way, given our Chartist history, which I was very pleased to highlight in one the first 90-second statements here in this Chamber. It’s a very proud history that Newport City Council is now building upon with the City of Democracy.Of course, Dirprwy Lywydd, as we all know, any city or town depends crucially on its people—it’s only as good as its population. I believe we’re very fortunate in Newport to have a resourceful local population, which has shown itself adaptable to the needs of a changing economy over a period of many years. Newport people contribute to their city very proudly and want to make it a success. When we look at the sporting field, Dirprwy Lywydd, we see that pride manifested in very strong support for Newport Gwent Dragons and Newport County AFC, the latter, of course, now properly restored to the football league and I hope remaining in the football league for many years to come.So, in conclusion, Dirprwy Lywydd, I will continue, and I know that colleagues will continue, to support the efforts of all those working towards a brighter future for Newport, my home town and, now, of course, home city. We must build on the strong progress that we’ve made in recent times. I strongly believe that Newport’s advantages, including geographical location and its transport and communication links, will help ensure that the city’s most exciting times lie ahead.

Jayne Bryant AC: Thank you to my fellow Newportonian, John Griffiths, for showcasing our city here today. I agree wholeheartedly with the points that John has made. Newport city centre has a renewed vibrancy, not least because of Friars Walk, which has brought flagship retail and restaurants, along with the invaluable independent businesses—some that have stayed in Newport through thick and thin—and new exciting businesses such as Parc Pantry, Crafted and the award-winning Tiny Rebel Brewery Co., which are just a couple of examples.There’s so much more to come. John has mentioned a new world-class convention centre at the Celtic Manor, which will be another string to Newport’s bow, and not just to Newport’s bow, but Wales’s. We have one of the first UK proton beam therapy units for cancer treatment about to open in the west of the city, and I’ve spoken in the Chamber before about the plan of the Office of National Statistics to develop a data hub.I’m personally proud, as someone who was born and brought up and lives in Newport, of our cultural and sporting heritage. With the Roman remains at Caerleon, a rich medieval maritime history, our majestic transporter bridge and the elegant Tredegar House, along with the historic parks, such as Belle Vue. Our unique Chartist history puts Newport at the forefront of a modern democracy. Our industrial and musical past and present attracts people to our city. From the Tredegar House Folk Festival to the Caerleon arts festival, we’ve a rich history and we’re a city that must continue to rise.

Mohammad Asghar (Oscar) AC: I am grateful to John Griffiths for bringing this debate forward this afternoon. I love Newport. It is the place I chose to make my home more than 45 years ago, but like many other towns and cities, Newport has suffered due to changes in shopping habits. The latest Local Data Company report ranks Newport as one of the worst-performing town centres for retail and leisure vacancies, with a rate of over 25 per cent. It is good to see, therefore, the work that is going on to regenerate the city. We have already seen the success of the Friars Walk project. The company behind Friars Walk, Queensberry Real Estate has plans to create a public square to regenerate the southern part of Commercial Street—this is very good news. But we must attract more visitors to Newport. Deputy Presiding Officer, over five years ago, in this Chamber, I raised the point for a convention centre in Wales. I’m glad that Sir Terry Matthews has understood our belief and, after five years, something is moving on. I’m very excited about the plan for an international convention centre that John has just mentioned. It is a £21 billion industry for the United Kingdom, and I’m sure we’ll be having a big share out of it. We have already seen the benefit of holding the Ryder Cup and the NATO summit in the Celtic Manor, and an international convention centre can build on that success and bring at least £17 million a year to that area in Newport. I’m sure everyone will join with me in welcoming the development and recognising the huge contribution it will make to ensure that Newport remains a city on the rise and one of the best in Wales.

Thank you very much. I call the Cabinet Secretary for Communities and Children to reply to the debate—Carl Sargeant.

Carl Sargeant AC: Thank you, Deputy Presiding Officer. The great transporter suspension bridge; Dame Butler; Goldie Lookin Chain; Newport City Football Club; John Griffiths—his passion for Newport is, as always, inspiring, and these are just some of the things that give Newport its fame. He is a strong champion for the city and a determined advocate of action to ensure it continues to fulfil its potential. Deputy Llywydd, I’m a Cabinet Secretary from the north, as you are very well aware, and I can say that Newport is blessed to have two of the finest Assembly Members in the south in their area—John Griffiths and Jayne Bryant—and I’m very pleased to be able to work with them. Their contribution here today says an awful lot about them and the city they represent. I welcome the opportunity to highlight the positive work that is being undertaken in this city and I’d like to echo the praise for some of the notable achievements already expressed in this debate today. Although, my slight disappointment is that, in my three visits to the city over the last two weeks, I haven’t yet found the Tiny Rebel brewery, but I’ll rely on Jayne Bryant to give me an introduction, perhaps. [Laughter.] As John Griffiths quite rightly says, Newport is a city on the rise; Newport is a city that’s moving in the right direction. Indeed, the Newport rising of the Chartists in 1839—I believe if John was old enough, he’d have been at the forefront of that, too. Newport has been flying the flag in Wales in recent years, and has played host, very successfully, to privileged and prestigious events, such as the NATO summit in September 2014, drawing in leaders from across the world—President Obama in Newport; even he’s heard about it. And, of course, that followed the memorable Ryder Cup at the Celtic Manor in 2010. These events have put Newport and Wales on the map, and when the eyes of the world were upon us, Wales delivered—Newport delivered. We are fully aware of these events and they’re a starting point for the city and a fantastic springboard for further progress. So, the council and others need to be able to harness the positive effects of major events like these, to ensure that the benefits are felt through other local communities as well—indeed, in Hefin’s constituency, which is neighbouring—helping them to build resilience and becoming more prosperous as we move forward. A successful and thriving Newport isn’t just good for local residents; it benefits the surrounding areas too, and provides wider opportunities. We often hear, as I do in the north, about cities and places that compete with each other, and Newport being the second or the third town of south Wales. I think you’re coming close to the top, and I think, because of the work that you do as a collective—team Labour, John Griffiths and Jayne Bryant, working with Debbie Wilcox and the Labour team, and formerly Bob Bright—that’s shown we can rebuild our communities. I’m very proud to be part of that.Through our capital regeneration programme, Vibrant and Viable Places, we provided £16 million of Vibrant and Viable Places capital funding to improve the new housing, to improve housing conditions, develop local infrastructure, and the key buildings that Members have alluded to today. Indeed, I was very pleased to visit Friars Walk in the city centre. There’s a whole new vibrancy around that area, and it’s a fantastic place to develop new business and to support employment, supporting the local community. But it’s not by chance—this has come about by planning, and the support of the local authority, and I hope that continues into the future. I mentioned earlier that I visited Newport on three occasions in the last week, the latest being this morning—indeed, I was at the football ground that John Griffiths often appears at—not playing, but he’s an avid fan, and long may that continue, too. It’s great to know that the team are in the league that he was hoping for. A fortnight ago I saw first-hand some of these excellent projects. The work undertaken at the national building demonstrates what can be achieved through strong partnership working—exactly what John Griffiths was talking about. The project now provides businesses premises, as well as 12 new homes in that city. Indeed, it was a privilege to open a new children’s nursery, which is a business that’s been able to expand due to the new facilities within a newly refurbished national building—a fantastic facility. The housing estate properties on Cardiff Road—again, I recognise all of these as transformational for this fine city. Llywydd, I think there is a great journey for Newport, demonstrated by the vision of individuals as they pass through that community, but now people are not just passing through—they’re stopping and thinking and working, with an opportunity for involvement and investing there. Again, there is no shortage to the work undertaken by my good friend John Griffiths. I wish Newport the very best of luck, and I hope that progress continues, working with partners such as Newport City Homes and other partners, indeed, that work in that area. I think there is a great opportunity for all of us to say, ‘We’re backing Newport’, like the campaign, and that’s been highlighted today with the contribution by Members in this Chamber. I wish them the best of luck and hope that Newport continues to rise as a city for the future here in Wales. Diolch yn fawr.

Thank you very much. That brings today’s proceedings to a close. Thank you.

The meeting ended at 18:53.

QNR

Questions to the Cabinet Secretary for Health, Well-being and Sport

Hefin David: What action is the Welsh Government taking to support people with haemophilia in Wales who were infected as a result of historic treatment with NHS contaminated blood and blood products?

Vaughan Gething: I am consulting those affected, including people with haemophilia, in relation to the payments being offered. I updated the cross-party group on haemophilia and contaminated blood at its recent meeting and will issue a written statement in the new year once the outcome of this consultation is known.

Dai Lloyd: Will the Minister make a statement on the provision of social care for disabled people?

Vaughan Gething: The Social Services and Well-being (Wales) Act 2014 sets out our commitment to ensuring the provision of services, care and support for all people, including disabled people. We are also working with our learning disability advisory group to develop a learning disability strategic action plan.

Mark Isherwood: How is the Welsh Government combating the key challenges for health services in Wales?

Vaughan Gething: This Government has protected investment in the health service and the commitments in ‘Taking Wales Forward’ will build on the strong platform we put in place over the last Assembly term. Our integrated health system positions health boards as responsible to provide high-quality services when people need them.

Nick Ramsay: Will the Minister make a statement on mental health services in Monmouthshire?

Vaughan Gething: I expect the local health board to ensure that all appropriate mental health services are provided for the people of Monmouthshire, in line with our 10-year mental health strategy ‘Together for Mental Health’.

Mohammad Asghar: How will the policies contained in the Welsh Government's 'Taking Wales Forward' programme improve children's health in Wales?

Vaughan Gething: We are committed to improving children’s health in Wales through our Healthy Child Wales programme, which is included in ‘Taking Wales Forward’. The programme includes a range of preventative and early intervention measures to help parents, children and young people make healthy lifestyle choices in their formative years.